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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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urea hosts Richard Saunders and stefan

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Richard good to see you again hello

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Stefan we're back we're back in the zone

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this less we had episode what 4032 or

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something it is good gifts ah I wish it

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was notice in fact it's episode number

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53 for the 23rd of October which is

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today by the way Oh today is the is

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actually today it's actually today today

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is today that's that's a phenomenon it's

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amazing and it's own 53 says actually

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it's like the first one of the year but

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not really because we missed a couple

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actually no we didn't miss any so this

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is like happy new year well I mean we've

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gone over the year we had we have so

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this is a few episodes of the the

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second year okay that's 53 cuz i think

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there's 52 weeks the yield era oh I see

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so yes yes earl early on in the very

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first few month we skinned up off we

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skip the pepper i remember that it was a

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deep and dark depressing target nice

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well it's good to be back env3 I got a

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bit of an interesting episode beginning

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of the editor from the scientific

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america actually that's right uh he's

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just retired he was the former

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editor-in-chief of Scientific American

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magazine John Rennie and dr. H he caught

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up with him in New York how was he like

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in in deposition for a long time he was

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um actually I think they mentioned that

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in the interview right cuz that's a

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pretty pretty established magazine

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that's way before the Internet that's

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amazing yeah and she got him that's

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fantastic now that's followed by our

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reporter nurse Joanne benim ooh-hoo

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cozen gets a swine flu shot a real one

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or homeopathic one a real happy family

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right now like a real one a real one

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excellent is that we can hear her

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actually getting the chop back out do

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you remember about all five or six

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months ago I went and I had a shot

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myself pertussis okay I remember that

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and he said it hurt a little bit hardly

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at all hardly felt and honestly yeah

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up and you you're brave tough man so

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your net ID be a screaming like a girl

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figure out and jog it was an only

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empathic one I just have a drink of

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homeopathic remedy he'll be fine he's in

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a bit of Reiki bitter a key that

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everything be cooked laughing at the

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ready that's followed by the think tank

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of course they would all thing takes

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where where is the think tank this week

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in our favorite club down the street

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which is the Canterbury host and park

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RSL which is a bit of a legend of

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clubland in Sydney if you never come to

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Australia if you lipstick overseas or

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here in Sydney go to the CHP RSL because

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it is a cabaret mecca it is they've got

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a lot of acts that were really bigger

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than act I think the researchers are

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searches or the Seekers or that I

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actually supported the searches at

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Calvary Hill superga reserve couple

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years ago anything they were still

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walking without Zimmer frame amazing it

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was Jenny what talking about the

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Canterbury Coulson park area so it was

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there I met Don lane it was not it was

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you did that five years back I was there

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for some other reason I can't remember

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why and Don Lane was divided out of that

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no do it was a okay may have a Rainmaker

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now we mentioned Don lined of course

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because he died only yesterday yes at 75

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and he was the man who kicked james

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randi off his varieties in a fit of rage

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in fact I'll just play that clip right

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now what I am defending is you you come

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over here with this big reputation you

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give us a lot of lip service about all

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this stuff that you're going to prove

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you go against the lady like Doris

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Stokes who never harmed anybody in her

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whole life and you call her a Charlotte

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and a fake and that woman would have I

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anybody but I don't know whether she's

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right or wrong I what you would lie to

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nobody went off for commercial break and

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there you go Wow Stefan all I can over

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the Doris Stokes Nora he believed in her

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thoroughly well you couldn't think of

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the time it was I mean this was Don lane

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he had his show in the late 70s to the

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early 80s hmm and that was really

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especially the late 70s was the big time

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for all the spoon bending in our psyche

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that sort of funny people here and so

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Doris Stokes and these people would come

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on the Don Lane show do their act really

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well and convince a lot of words a lot

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of people Don Lane was obviously cannot

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even see it comes James Randi saying no

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it's not really happening well darling

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spit the dummy is a saying because

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there's good ratings yeah good ratings

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and it'd be ironic if he was actually up

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there now looking down on us yo you know

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trying to break through that sort of

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veil of communication that the spirit

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people can't get through to our to lowly

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humans like I would miss Bea I roanoke

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your own is so ironic and talking about

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irony yes a median right anyway ah is in

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really good news dr. rachy and I have

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just scored a regular gig on radio 2 GB

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here in severe haven't yeah yeah what as

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a skeptic yet yeah I starting this

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Saturday night after 8pm it'll be

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between eight pm and nine play on chatty

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bit yeah we're going into downtown to

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the studio here in Sydney and we're

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going to be on Sydney radio I hope

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they're not going to call it the skeptic

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zone I have not I don't know what I

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don't know what they're going to call it

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but if you listen as you want to tune in

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you can hear us all around the world

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www.2g be calm right that's fantastic

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you have to check your time tables and

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scales and dates and yeah at least

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daylight saving Sydney time on saturday

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night between eight and nine daylight

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saving so add an hour to your normal and

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dumb and you getting paid not yet get

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come to deal no the rewards will be

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normally that just do the warm and fuzzy

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feeling the warm and fuzzy feeling and

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who knows they may even hear us in

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Mexico I say that hot because I've had

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an email from a bokken Mexico who would

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like me to quickly

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he's a weblog yayi which means skeptical

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dad ranches HTTP colon slash slash pa pa

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e SC EPT I see Oh Papa is skeptical dot

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wordpress com hey you got and when I saw

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that email actually he sounds like a

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pretty cool dude he was he is the great

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email yeah yeah sound to you too of

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course that's right and he wants to he

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wants to get a bit of a skeptical thing

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happening in Mexico which is a home of a

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lot of wood right a bit so I think we

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should encourage him if anyone else is

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anywhere near Mexico or thinking of

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heading down there to maybe you know

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break bail or something um don't go and

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catch up with him and then get something

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set up check out check out his website

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check out its website well there's so

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much on today's show Stefan I think

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we've we've up we've outstayed our

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introductory we have we'd better move on

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let's go enjoy the show thanks for

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listening and Richard will see you at

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now it's time for dr. Rachel reports

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with dr. Rachel Dunlop hello listeners

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and welcome to dr. Reggie reports on

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this week's show I continued my

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interviews from New York City and this

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time I talked to John Rennie the

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editor-in-chief of Scientific American

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magazine recently retired I met John at

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the Nexus conference in New York City

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where he was moderating a panel i was on

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discussing science and the media this

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panel feature howard schneider media

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commentator and journalist john

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schneider pediatrician and myself John

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Rennie was very generous to give me his

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time in days after the conference where

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we sat down to talk about his career the

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media's role in science reporting and

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lots of other interesting things

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including creationists and with John

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rainy here in New York City hi John

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welcome to the skeptic zone well it's a

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pleasure to be with you and you have

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just recently retired from being the

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editor-in-chief of Scientific American

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magazine that's right which you did from

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1994 to 2009 yes yes that's right it was

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about 14 and a half year run as the

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editor-in-chief and pretty much dead on

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20 years of being at Scientific American

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all altogether which is which is a sort

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of unusually long tenure in both

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capacities in the magazine world based

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so can we talk a little bit about your

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background first of all you did an

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undergraduate at Yale University mm-hmm

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that's right and then you went on to

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work as a researcher at some Harvard

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Medical School researcher would probably

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be overstating it i mean i had i had

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graduating with my bachelor's degree in

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biology i was waiting for a while

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whether or not i wanted to go on into

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her search and i decided that rather

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than immediately jump into graduate

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school I would just go off and work as a

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technician which i did in a cell biology

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laboratory at Harvard med school so I I

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worked in a laboratory but I was you

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know a glorified technician at best

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never never truly a research or

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scientist how long did you do that

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I was really there probably for

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something like they think three years

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old together I mean it started off as I

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say I went there with the intention of

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sorting out whether or not I wanted to

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go on in graduate school I would say

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that appropriately within the space of a

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year or so of that I really didn't know

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that that I that I as much as I like the

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science I had a wonderful experience in

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that that I just liked explaining the

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work that much more so the the remainder

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of that time it was partly because I did

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still like working in the laboratory but

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also that was giving giving me time for

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starting to sort of rev up to make a

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transition over to becoming some kind of

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a science right or at that point which

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always seemed like such an improbable

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thing that I could possibly be able to

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do who did you work with that Harvard in

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that department because yes as a

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coincidence i'm going to be doing a talk

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in the cell biology department of

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harvard medical school now on thursday

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oh that's right it was actually i was

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actually it was in using the department

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of anatomy throughout of course that

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incorporates a lot of cell biology these

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days and i worked in the laboratory of

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daniel good enough who is well known as

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a gap Junction researcher okay so we

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were looking at a lot of intercellular

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junctions and intercellular

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communication related to that it was it

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was either they say a wonderful time dan

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good enough is a is a terrific scientist

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but also just a terrific man he was a

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great sort of mentor to everybody

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passing through the lab and I mean it

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was it was a rewarding experience in a

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lot of ways particularly i would say in

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going on is to work as a science writer

270
00:11:32,830 --> 00:11:29,900
because it helped me understand that so

271
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many things that people will write in a

272
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:36,740
quick passing way that how much time and

273
00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:38,810
effort goes into that you know i think

274
00:11:43,420 --> 00:11:41,570
about how many science stories you see

275
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where they someone will routinely say

276
00:11:47,140 --> 00:11:45,440
well we developed an antibody against

277
00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:47,150
this proteins like well you know in the

278
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course of the three years I was there we

279
00:11:52,269 --> 00:11:51,320
were constantly trying to develop a

280
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monoclonal

281
00:11:56,889 --> 00:11:55,279
body against gap Junction protein I

282
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think just about the time I was leaving

283
00:12:02,439 --> 00:11:59,930
we finally finally were getting it done

284
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so sometimes things that are throwaway

285
00:12:07,119 --> 00:12:04,310
lines in the course of a larger

286
00:12:11,170 --> 00:12:07,129
scientific discussion can involve months

287
00:12:13,689 --> 00:12:11,180
and years of dedicated effort so it

288
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:13,699
doesn't always show that yeah so during

289
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:16,490
that time were you writing or we what

290
00:12:21,790 --> 00:12:18,170
was it that attracted you to scientific

291
00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:21,800
writing well I'd always it always a had

292
00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:24,769
real interest in in writing and in

293
00:12:31,090 --> 00:12:27,920
science and I think when I was 11 or 12

294
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:31,100
years old I had picked up by chance this

295
00:12:38,019 --> 00:12:34,850
anthology of science essays by Isaac

296
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:38,029
Asimov and really just fell in love with

297
00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:40,160
that and that was I know this sounds a

298
00:12:43,749 --> 00:12:42,529
bit dim but it was really the very first

299
00:12:45,939 --> 00:12:43,759
moment it had occurred to me that

300
00:12:48,309 --> 00:12:45,949
anybody could even have a job that

301
00:12:49,929 --> 00:12:48,319
involved writing about science so I

302
00:12:51,429 --> 00:12:49,939
think in the back of my mind or

303
00:12:53,530 --> 00:12:51,439
sometimes more in the forefront of it

304
00:12:56,369 --> 00:12:53,540
but I it always had a certain desire to

305
00:13:00,850 --> 00:12:56,379
want to write about science but I think

306
00:13:03,939 --> 00:13:00,860
something that that had certainly slowed

307
00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:03,949
me from undertaking that head on was a

308
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:05,750
certain question of why one world would

309
00:13:10,509 --> 00:13:08,240
anybody care what I had to say about

310
00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:10,519
about science literally it just

311
00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:12,649
basically always had a lot of interests

312
00:13:20,199 --> 00:13:15,230
in that and writing in general really

313
00:13:22,210 --> 00:13:20,209
but science writing was one real strong

314
00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:22,220
area of interest and quite frankly in

315
00:13:27,129 --> 00:13:24,529
getting started as a professional writer

316
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:27,139
it was something that I knew about and

317
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:28,250
it's something that I could you know

318
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:30,079
that I had a chance of being able to

319
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:32,689
since be able to market myself as a

320
00:13:37,179 --> 00:13:35,360
writer of science more reasonably than

321
00:13:38,499 --> 00:13:37,189
anything else how did you get started

322
00:13:40,179 --> 00:13:38,509
then John because you didn't go straight

323
00:13:42,669 --> 00:13:40,189
into being the editor-in-chief of

324
00:13:44,110 --> 00:13:42,679
Scientific American no no though though

325
00:13:46,329 --> 00:13:44,120
I I think there are some people who

326
00:13:48,699 --> 00:13:46,339
still feel like it's sort of an

327
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:48,709
astonishingly short amount of time it

328
00:13:52,090 --> 00:13:50,689
was about 10 years or so you know all

329
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:52,100
things considered about Sarah from the

330
00:13:56,019 --> 00:13:53,839
time when I was really debuting as some

331
00:13:59,559 --> 00:13:56,029
kind of science writer to landing in

332
00:14:02,290 --> 00:13:59,569
that position and and I believe me I pin

333
00:14:03,950 --> 00:14:02,300
it to luck and the kindness of strangers

334
00:14:06,140 --> 00:14:03,960
as much as anything

335
00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:06,150
I you know I really had just started off

336
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:09,150
first looking for any kinds of paid

337
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:11,730
writing jobs that I could find and the

338
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:13,650
foot in the door for me this way was

339
00:14:20,390 --> 00:14:18,000
that there was a job that I had seen

340
00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:20,400
advertised they needed to hire someone

341
00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:22,860
who could write abstracts of magazine

342
00:14:28,580 --> 00:14:26,070
articles some of which involved a lot of

343
00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:28,590
science content the irony given where

344
00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:31,020
things were going or I supposed to

345
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:33,360
poetic justice or whatever of this is

346
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:35,850
that one of the things that that I was

347
00:14:40,730 --> 00:14:38,370
definitely hired to do was to read

348
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:40,740
Scientific American and write these kind

349
00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:43,740
of little 150 word abstracts for this a

350
00:14:50,810 --> 00:14:47,910
big citation work that job really gave

351
00:14:53,450 --> 00:14:50,820
me a much more intensive exposure to

352
00:14:55,850 --> 00:14:53,460
Scientific American as a magazine I mean

353
00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:55,860
certainly known it well before this but

354
00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:57,540
now I really got to know it inside and

355
00:15:01,160 --> 00:14:59,100
out and I got to know more of its

356
00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:01,170
stylings and how they did things so

357
00:15:05,690 --> 00:15:03,750
years later when i came to apply for a

358
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:05,700
job at Scientific American it really

359
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:08,370
served me a very good stays sort of but

360
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:12,330
again ah did just the the random good

361
00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:14,250
fortune of how that worked out the sort

362
00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:15,630
of stuff that you covered during your

363
00:15:20,570 --> 00:15:17,580
time at Scientific American some of it

364
00:15:22,850 --> 00:15:20,580
was very controversial or it was

365
00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:22,860
perceived as controversial by the people

366
00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:23,910
that maybe didn't like what you were

367
00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:26,700
saying but on top of that they were one

368
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:28,470
of the articles you wrote which was 15

369
00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:30,570
ounces to creationist nonsense right I

370
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:33,030
think is the most downloaded unread

371
00:15:36,620 --> 00:15:34,770
article in the history of the Scientific

372
00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:36,630
American certainly certainly one of the

373
00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:38,280
most there been times when it I think

374
00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:40,350
may have been the most I don't know if

375
00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:41,880
it currently is but it's certainly one

376
00:15:47,060 --> 00:15:44,460
of the most beloved yeah so you wrote

377
00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:47,070
that in 2002 and some of the things that

378
00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:48,780
you addressed I just wanted to ask you

379
00:15:53,060 --> 00:15:51,000
if you think much has changed in the

380
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:53,070
creationist realm since then and in

381
00:15:56,540 --> 00:15:54,720
particular one of the things you talked

382
00:15:58,730 --> 00:15:56,550
about in that article was transitional

383
00:16:01,370 --> 00:15:58,740
fossils and how you know the

384
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:01,380
creationists basically want a half or we

385
00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:03,210
went out a refer to it as a crocodile I

386
00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:05,820
guess yeah a Crocker that's hathcock

387
00:16:09,650 --> 00:16:07,620
around half a duck right but what do you

388
00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:09,660
think that that we've satisfied them

389
00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:11,910
anymore now that it's you know you know

390
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:14,030
any almost 10 years later and

391
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:15,670
fundamentally know

392
00:16:19,050 --> 00:16:16,810
I mean I think that you know what's

393
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:19,060
what's really really sad is the extent

394
00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:23,610
to which the the kinds of creationist

395
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:26,860
arguments or would-be rebuttals to

396
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:29,110
evolution that they rise they are sort

397
00:16:33,870 --> 00:16:32,050
of evergreen but of course since your

398
00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:33,880
dear the people who are raising these

399
00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:36,880
would be arguments are almost by

400
00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:39,940
definition not engaging with anything

401
00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:43,270
like the scientific literature that the

402
00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:45,310
fact that the science keeps progressing

403
00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:49,870
and the fact that there's a deep broad

404
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:53,590
streak of misunderstanding signs that

405
00:16:57,150 --> 00:16:55,690
runs through so many of these it's just

406
00:16:59,810 --> 00:16:57,160
not at all surprising that nothing

407
00:17:03,380 --> 00:16:59,820
really changes so arguments about

408
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:03,390
transitional fossils and lack thereof

409
00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:06,490
that never goes away all the kinds of

410
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:09,820
arguments about the how does this second

411
00:17:14,340 --> 00:17:12,160
law of thermodynamics says that that's

412
00:17:16,940 --> 00:17:14,350
impossible I mean you know I think what

413
00:17:20,850 --> 00:17:16,950
we see is that those those underlying

414
00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:20,860
kinds of arguments seem to go on forever

415
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:23,500
and ever and I have and I dare say that

416
00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:25,770
we would have seen some variation on

417
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:28,420
virtually all of them if we went back

418
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:30,880
even to say the 1960s which i think is

419
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:32,890
really when sort of creationism started

420
00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:35,970
to get the sort of modern era of

421
00:17:40,860 --> 00:17:39,550
creationism trying to refute evolution

422
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:40,870
when it really at least in the United

423
00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:43,210
States started to take off again yeah

424
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:44,560
well of course I just shipped the bar

425
00:17:47,850 --> 00:17:46,510
don't know if they move the goalposts be

426
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:47,860
one of the things you talked about in

427
00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:49,840
your article was that they don't believe

428
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:52,030
in evolution because if we come from

429
00:17:55,710 --> 00:17:54,010
monkeys and Wyatt this half monkeys and

430
00:17:58,530 --> 00:17:55,720
how humans and right you know the

431
00:18:01,860 --> 00:17:58,540
funniest thing is when when when it that

432
00:18:04,050 --> 00:18:01,870
article and I listed the notorious if

433
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:04,060
humans came from monkeys why are there

434
00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:06,850
still monkeys yeah there were people

435
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:09,100
opponents of evolution who wrote in and

436
00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:11,200
saying now you're just trying to be

437
00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:13,420
ridiculous now no one no one would ever

438
00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:15,670
make that argument and I would I would

439
00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:18,150
send them copies of these

440
00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:20,760
I mean people making exactly that

441
00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:23,700
argument to us there is you know I'm

442
00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:24,630
sorry to put this way but there's

443
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:27,390
literally no argument too stupid for the

444
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:31,470
creation because to make in the defense

445
00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:34,650
of their cause you know including that

446
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:37,830
one which is shows such a profound

447
00:18:43,790 --> 00:18:41,100
ignorance of what evolution means is

448
00:18:45,530 --> 00:18:43,800
that you just is just as no help really

449
00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:45,540
even the you know the the whole

450
00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:48,750
transitional fossils argument is another

451
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:53,160
one that you know it almost sounds more

452
00:18:58,190 --> 00:18:56,250
intelligent than it really is I mean the

453
00:19:01,280 --> 00:18:58,200
the argument that they're supposed to be

454
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:01,290
this Crocodoc I mean where do you in a

455
00:19:04,790 --> 00:19:03,150
way even begin is like their first of

456
00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:04,800
all there's no particular reason that

457
00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:06,300
you're not necessarily looking at a

458
00:19:12,410 --> 00:19:08,870
transition from crocodile to duck yeah

459
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:12,420
next there's you know there's they're

460
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:14,250
the ones defining that they're supposed

461
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:16,170
to be a transitional creature that

462
00:19:19,850 --> 00:19:18,450
combines these features in some way but

463
00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:19,860
also you know sort of the deeper

464
00:19:24,050 --> 00:19:21,780
ignorance that the reality is you're not

465
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:24,060
going to find anything that's like a

466
00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:25,890
Crocodoc in a way you're going to do

467
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:27,660
they will always say it's like well

468
00:19:32,270 --> 00:19:30,810
that's that's a bird or that some sort

469
00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:32,280
of lizard it was like we're looking for

470
00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:33,630
something that's different from that

471
00:19:36,770 --> 00:19:35,340
like okay well then where do you start

472
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:36,780
with that you just got no way to go

473
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:38,250
right I mean you know it goes you

474
00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:40,170
granted sometimes it goes to a certain

475
00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:43,500
kind of the the nuances and tricky

476
00:19:49,070 --> 00:19:46,550
things about exactly how you are

477
00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:49,080
categorizing some of these creatures but

478
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,110
but that's that's their problem I mean

479
00:19:57,020 --> 00:19:54,720
it's not it doesn't point to any sort of

480
00:19:58,600 --> 00:19:57,030
deeper problem with the argument of that

481
00:20:02,420 --> 00:19:58,610
you're looking at a depth of

482
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,430
phylogenetic line that way yeah well you

483
00:20:06,650 --> 00:20:04,320
mentioned to me earlier that you also

484
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:06,660
received a fair bit of a critical mail

485
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:08,610
from the likes of the nanotechnology

486
00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:11,700
people else so what sort of responsive

487
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:12,990
you are safe from people like this when

488
00:20:16,070 --> 00:20:15,120
you write things yeah it's the same sort

489
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:16,080
of thing I mean with the with the

490
00:20:24,290 --> 00:20:18,810
nanotechnology people there in a sense

491
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:24,300
the a lot of that really stems from an

492
00:20:28,649 --> 00:20:26,370
article that we published i think back

493
00:20:30,899 --> 00:20:28,659
in 1996 one of the

494
00:20:32,849 --> 00:20:30,909
the editors on the staff Gary sticks is

495
00:20:35,159 --> 00:20:32,859
the actual author of this but I got sort

496
00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:35,169
of pulled into it by virtue of it having

497
00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:36,580
appeared on my watch and my having been

498
00:20:41,789 --> 00:20:38,950
involved in some of the statements of

499
00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:41,799
standing up for this article Gary sticks

500
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:44,169
made a very interesting point about the

501
00:20:49,349 --> 00:20:46,840
state of nanotechnology especially back

502
00:20:52,919 --> 00:20:49,359
at that time which was that you know in

503
00:20:55,259 --> 00:20:52,929
those days you had a trim they say Eric

504
00:20:57,239 --> 00:20:55,269
Drexler and some of the other people who

505
00:21:00,239 --> 00:20:57,249
are sort of the the major obvious

506
00:21:02,969 --> 00:21:00,249
spokespeople for the exciting new field

507
00:21:06,089 --> 00:21:02,979
of nanotechnology they would often talk

508
00:21:07,529 --> 00:21:06,099
about the incredible things that would

509
00:21:09,269 --> 00:21:07,539
be to come in often in terms of these

510
00:21:12,539 --> 00:21:09,279
kind of Nano assemblers these sorts of

511
00:21:14,369 --> 00:21:12,549
little microscopic robots that we'd be

512
00:21:16,259 --> 00:21:14,379
able to I mean literally they would talk

513
00:21:18,269 --> 00:21:16,269
about them say disassembling a junk heap

514
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:18,279
and assembling a new working automobile

515
00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:20,799
for you you know they they would they

516
00:21:25,769 --> 00:21:23,049
would paint a picture of nanotechnology

517
00:21:29,909 --> 00:21:25,779
that essentially made it magical that it

518
00:21:31,499 --> 00:21:29,919
could do anything someday and it would

519
00:21:33,479 --> 00:21:31,509
get Gary in in effect you should have

520
00:21:35,999 --> 00:21:33,489
called them on this he said look you

521
00:21:38,159 --> 00:21:36,009
know maybe someday it might be

522
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:38,169
conceivable to do any of this but you're

523
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:40,210
talking about a form of the technology

524
00:21:44,489 --> 00:21:42,369
that is so incredibly remote from

525
00:21:46,769 --> 00:21:44,499
anything we have right now that it's

526
00:21:50,879 --> 00:21:46,779
it's really just kind of science fiction

527
00:21:52,859 --> 00:21:50,889
not a simple meaningful extrapolation of

528
00:21:55,289 --> 00:21:52,869
technology anymore you're you're going

529
00:21:57,330 --> 00:21:55,299
too far you at this point you've then

530
00:21:59,039 --> 00:21:57,340
you you you can't get some of these

531
00:22:00,960 --> 00:21:59,049
kinds of things you can't even get at

532
00:22:03,810 --> 00:22:00,970
that point the equivalent of little tiny

533
00:22:06,539 --> 00:22:03,820
you know a molecule sized gears

534
00:22:08,969 --> 00:22:06,549
interacting with one another and and

535
00:22:12,899 --> 00:22:08,979
this just outraged a lot of people in

536
00:22:15,239 --> 00:22:12,909
the the nanotechnology area particularly

537
00:22:18,989 --> 00:22:15,249
because Gary often also made the point

538
00:22:20,669 --> 00:22:18,999
that when he went to the sum of these

539
00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:20,679
nano technology conferences where

540
00:22:25,109 --> 00:22:23,320
scientists in the area would were

541
00:22:26,669 --> 00:22:25,119
appearing and he would talk to them a

542
00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:26,679
little more behind the scenes a lot of

543
00:22:31,139 --> 00:22:29,830
them would confess that really in

544
00:22:33,659 --> 00:22:31,149
talking to people like say Richard

545
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:33,669
Smalley who was one of the inventor to

546
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:37,520
discover of a Bucky tubes

547
00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:42,050
making the point that that really they

548
00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:44,150
they liked to go to the nano technology

549
00:22:46,810 --> 00:22:45,230
conferences because they were sort of

550
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:46,820
fun and they were sort of interesting

551
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:49,190
and it helped attract funding but it

552
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:50,930
says you know they these guys are not

553
00:22:55,690 --> 00:22:53,120
actually contributing to the advance of

554
00:22:58,390 --> 00:22:55,700
the Science in any meaningful way that

555
00:23:00,010 --> 00:22:58,400
the reality of nanotechnology was much

556
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:00,020
more like the kind of thing that people

557
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:03,730
would look at is sort of chemistry

558
00:23:09,030 --> 00:23:05,930
certain kinds of other kinds of Applied

559
00:23:11,980 --> 00:23:09,040
Physics you know it was it was not very

560
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:11,990
he's not very glamorous and even today

561
00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:14,240
when you know you can go to some places

562
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:16,700
and people will happily exalt about the

563
00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:19,250
you know p however many thousands of

564
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:22,340
products that have nanotechnology in

565
00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:23,630
them what they really mean is that in

566
00:23:26,830 --> 00:23:25,190
some cases they have nanoparticles

567
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:26,840
you're talking about like sunscreens and

568
00:23:32,410 --> 00:23:29,360
things you're still a few light-years

569
00:23:33,970 --> 00:23:32,420
away from those little Nano assemblers

570
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:33,980
that are going to do this and the

571
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:36,050
reality is you know and Baron lunch

572
00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:38,510
Scientific American has published many

573
00:23:42,850 --> 00:23:41,150
many articles very enthusiastic about

574
00:23:45,580 --> 00:23:42,860
nanotechnology over the years but our

575
00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:45,590
point is you know you can't necessarily

576
00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:47,960
pin down the future that it's going to

577
00:23:52,870 --> 00:23:50,390
be this the future of nanotechnology

578
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:52,880
might for example involve something much

579
00:23:59,740 --> 00:23:57,170
more of perfectly you know of macro

580
00:24:02,580 --> 00:23:59,750
scale objects it's just you it's a far

581
00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:02,590
more sophisticated level of

582
00:24:06,250 --> 00:24:04,280
manufacturing that you're bringing to

583
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:06,260
them and control over the materials a

584
00:24:11,470 --> 00:24:08,720
lot of ways nanotechnology is just a

585
00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:11,480
sort of souped-up version of material

586
00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:13,700
science now in fact things have

587
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:14,900
progressed in a lot of different ways

588
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:16,910
and and I think at some point a lot of

589
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:18,470
the nanotechnology people they think

590
00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:20,930
that we have seen the error of our ways

591
00:24:26,650 --> 00:24:23,660
and that we would have sort of quietly

592
00:24:28,450 --> 00:24:26,660
recanted all of this but it's like I

593
00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:28,460
think if people go back and read that

594
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:30,350
article they will see that Gary actually

595
00:24:34,930 --> 00:24:32,450
made a perfectly good point and that

596
00:24:37,690 --> 00:24:34,940
what we were saying about the future of

597
00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:37,700
where say nanotechnology would be here

598
00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:39,830
in the year 2010 was quite a bit

599
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:42,080
different from what a lot of the nano

600
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:43,970
technology enthusiasts were saying at

601
00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:45,330
that same time

602
00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:47,700
so well I just want to go back to the

603
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:50,160
creationists for a moment one of the

604
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:51,650
things you talked about in your article

605
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:54,330
15 answers to creationist nonsense was

606
00:24:58,820 --> 00:24:56,490
the the concept of a scientific theory

607
00:25:01,040 --> 00:24:58,830
and I guess this applies to more than

608
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:01,050
just creationism or rather evolution in

609
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:04,200
this particular case how do you respond

610
00:25:08,050 --> 00:25:06,240
to people who say I'm sure you get this

611
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:08,060
all the time but that's just a theory

612
00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:10,230
right I mean this is you know this is

613
00:25:14,270 --> 00:25:11,880
one of those maddening things where r

614
00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:14,280
times you kind of wish the nomenclature

615
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:16,590
were we're different yeah but you know

616
00:25:22,730 --> 00:25:18,810
it is what it is and all you can really

617
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:22,740
try to do is to to emphasize to people

618
00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:25,650
that when scientists say something is a

619
00:25:30,860 --> 00:25:28,440
theory there they don't just mean that

620
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:30,870
it's some sort of wild unsubstantiated

621
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:33,840
idea that they're they're noodling

622
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:36,690
around that that when something actually

623
00:25:42,620 --> 00:25:40,050
holds the the status of being a theory

624
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:42,630
in there are certain criteria that it

625
00:25:46,970 --> 00:25:45,120
meets that and that that it goes to a

626
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:46,980
certain level of it being testable that

627
00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:48,570
there were kind of hypotheses that would

628
00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:50,670
come out of that and that as a theory it

629
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:52,980
also holds together some body of

630
00:25:59,600 --> 00:25:57,450
evidence it's a framework for for being

631
00:26:02,120 --> 00:25:59,610
able to understand what's going on but I

632
00:26:04,820 --> 00:26:02,130
think that there is this this notion I

633
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:04,830
mean I vaguely remember having been

634
00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:08,610
taught this as a little boy and I think

635
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:10,140
probably there are a lot of people out

636
00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:12,480
there who who do still have this in

637
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:14,340
their heads I I hope it isn't still

638
00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:16,410
taught anything like this now but there

639
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:17,820
is the sense that there's some kind of

640
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:20,130
not even just like a hierarchy between

641
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:23,520
the idea of facts and hypotheses and

642
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:27,090
theories and and scientific laws but

643
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:28,170
there's actually some sort of

644
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:30,930
progression and that's the thing that a

645
00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:32,610
lot of people just don't understand that

646
00:26:37,250 --> 00:26:35,190
you know the theory of evolution no

647
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:37,260
matter how much evidence ever comes

648
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:39,600
together it's never going to be a law of

649
00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:41,490
no it's not going to suddenly get

650
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:44,310
promoted to become a law of evolution

651
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:46,650
you could you could argue you know I've

652
00:26:49,370 --> 00:26:47,760
never really seen anybody talked about

653
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:49,380
this you could talk about laws of

654
00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:51,090
evolution you could you could talk about

655
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:53,340
the idea that certain kinds of systems

656
00:26:57,470 --> 00:26:55,530
with certain kinds of qualities that it

657
00:26:59,150 --> 00:26:57,480
is a reasonable generalization about the

658
00:27:01,970 --> 00:26:59,160
way the universe works that it is going

659
00:27:04,610 --> 00:27:01,980
to evolve in some way but even that's

660
00:27:06,020 --> 00:27:04,620
not you know what what scientists are

661
00:27:08,620 --> 00:27:06,030
talking about they talk about the theory

662
00:27:11,390 --> 00:27:08,630
of evolution because they're they're

663
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:11,400
completely certain that it exists but

664
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:13,050
they just you know there are lots of

665
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:14,640
different models and so forth thick and

666
00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:17,340
they can work their way into that um so

667
00:27:22,420 --> 00:27:20,430
it's if that's that goes to just a deep

668
00:27:25,670 --> 00:27:22,430
misunderstanding about something with

669
00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:25,680
within science but it's at least it's a

670
00:27:30,380 --> 00:27:27,960
kind of misunderstanding it's a kind of

671
00:27:32,510 --> 00:27:30,390
misunderstanding that I have some level

672
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:32,520
of sympathy for at least among people

673
00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:35,210
among the general public who really

674
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,230
genuinely just sort of innocent naive

675
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:39,120
about a lot of these things I think a

676
00:27:43,850 --> 00:27:41,010
lot of people get missed taught about

677
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:43,860
these subjects and so that ends part one

678
00:27:49,310 --> 00:27:46,710
of my interview with John R any tune in

679
00:27:51,230 --> 00:27:49,320
in two weeks time to hear part two where

680
00:27:53,540 --> 00:27:51,240
I talked to John in more detail about

681
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:53,550
the public understanding of science and

682
00:27:58,790 --> 00:27:55,200
what is the role for the media in

683
00:28:08,830 --> 00:27:58,800
educating the public and until next time

684
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:11,210
yeah aight guys i was talking to Richard

685
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:13,200
solvency today all right he said if we

686
00:28:17,330 --> 00:28:15,210
record a trailer for our podcast

687
00:28:18,979 --> 00:28:17,340
skeptics with a que he'd play it on

688
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:18,989
their on their show that's nice of him

689
00:28:21,529 --> 00:28:20,369
that's very generous it's pretty good

690
00:28:23,659 --> 00:28:21,539
i'm not sure what we could do though I

691
00:28:25,999 --> 00:28:23,669
mean well suppose you tell people shows

692
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:26,009
about but it's basically this yeah like

693
00:28:29,930 --> 00:28:28,289
yeah but you know we talk about science

694
00:28:31,129 --> 00:28:29,940
and skepticism and things that's that's

695
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:31,139
true I suppose here you mentioned the

696
00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:33,090
website address what merseyside skeptics

697
00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:35,609
todo UK yeah yeah just exertion iTunes

698
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:37,230
oh and then we could end with like a big

699
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:40,710
song like the skeptics with okay oh no

700
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:50,680
many people are concerned about the roll

701
00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:53,330
out of the swine flu vaccine given that

702
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:55,520
cases appear to be dwindling without the

703
00:28:59,740 --> 00:28:57,410
feared public health disaster that had

704
00:29:01,630 --> 00:28:59,750
been anticipated but there are reasons

705
00:29:03,910 --> 00:29:01,640
why the medical community needs to

706
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:03,920
remain vigilant the World Health

707
00:29:10,060 --> 00:29:06,890
Organization's pandemic h1n1 weekly

708
00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:10,070
update has reported nearly 400,000

709
00:29:17,410 --> 00:29:13,000
confirmed cases of the virus with over

710
00:29:20,050 --> 00:29:17,420
4,700 deaths recorded in North America

711
00:29:22,210 --> 00:29:20,060
northern Asia and Western Europe cases

712
00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:22,220
of influenza like illness are steadily

713
00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:24,860
rising above seasonal baseline levels in

714
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:27,440
the southern hemisphere cases have

715
00:29:32,590 --> 00:29:29,630
returned to below baseline levels with

716
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:32,600
few cases reported last week the World

717
00:29:36,340 --> 00:29:34,730
Health Organization hosted a three-day

718
00:29:38,890 --> 00:29:36,350
meeting at the Pan American Health

719
00:29:40,510 --> 00:29:38,900
Organization in Washington looking at

720
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:40,520
the clinical features and management of

721
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:43,730
pandemic influenza while most patients

722
00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:45,380
are experiencing mild illness and

723
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:47,540
recovering quickly there is concern

724
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:49,850
regarding a small subset of patients who

725
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:52,100
developed severe pneumonia requiring

726
00:29:56,890 --> 00:29:53,840
admission to intensive care and

727
00:29:58,540 --> 00:29:56,900
ventilator support treatment has proven

728
00:30:00,820 --> 00:29:58,550
to be very difficult with death

729
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:00,830
frequently attributed to severe viral

730
00:30:06,010 --> 00:30:03,850
pneumonia directly related to the virus

731
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,020
attendees noted a strikingly different

732
00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:08,720
pattern to seasonal influenza with many

733
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:10,790
severe cases occurring in young healthy

734
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:14,090
people in Australia and New Zealand

735
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:16,820
nearly one-third of ICU patients had no

736
00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:19,310
underlying health conditions those at

737
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:21,380
greatest risk however include pregnant

738
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:22,850
women particularly in the third

739
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:25,310
trimester children below two years of

740
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:27,170
age and those with chronic lung disease

741
00:30:32,650 --> 00:30:31,130
including asthma the h1n1 vaccine was

742
00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:32,660
released several weeks ago and in

743
00:30:37,150 --> 00:30:34,760
Australia seasonal influenza vaccines

744
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:37,160
including pain swelling and redness at

745
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:39,290
the injection site and some systemic

746
00:30:43,980 --> 00:30:41,450
reactions such as fever headache or

747
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:43,990
joint pain which lasts a couple of days

748
00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:46,250
the World Health Organization is

749
00:30:50,530 --> 00:30:47,960
encouraging reporting of any adverse

750
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:50,540
events and sharing of this data in order

751
00:30:55,390 --> 00:30:52,310
to carry out further risk benefit

752
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:55,400
assessment in particular health workers

753
00:31:00,730 --> 00:30:57,290
are encouraged to be vaccinated

754
00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:00,740
as a nurse I'm aware of the risks of the

755
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:03,800
influenza virus and the risks and

756
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:08,090
benefits of the swine flu vaccine so I

757
00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:10,250
decided to go and have my swine flu

758
00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:12,620
vaccine and I had it done earlier today

759
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:18,110
and this is my experience so I've just

760
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:19,310
read all the information about the

761
00:31:23,740 --> 00:31:21,350
vaccine and I've signed my little

762
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:23,750
consent form here and I'm pretty

763
00:31:28,540 --> 00:31:25,490
confident that I'm aware of all the

764
00:31:37,420 --> 00:31:28,550
risks and that I'm happy to go ahead and

765
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:37,430
have my vaccination done so Joanna do

766
00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:39,710
you ever had a normal influence of

767
00:31:44,290 --> 00:31:42,020
special designation yes okay and you've

768
00:31:46,030 --> 00:31:44,300
never had any reactions of it you have

769
00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:46,040
previously had any other flight they've

770
00:31:50,370 --> 00:31:47,830
helped sensitivities

771
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:50,380
no or any severe allergies timing not at

772
00:31:57,149 --> 00:31:53,200
all and any other vaccinations that you

773
00:32:00,990 --> 00:31:57,159
can we actually know never reaction okay

774
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:01,000
you're well today no debe no you haven't

775
00:32:06,539 --> 00:32:02,620
had a past history of guillain-barre

776
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:06,549
syndrome bleeding disorder or pregnant

777
00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:09,490
no and you never had this vaccine yeah

778
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:12,460
okay great alright so what I'm going to

779
00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:14,470
do is I'm just going to chat awhile with

780
00:32:18,810 --> 00:32:16,990
you this is a multi-dose vial and we've

781
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:18,820
just open this this morning and will be

782
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:23,679
just discarded after 24 hours ok so it's

783
00:32:29,669 --> 00:32:26,620
pan back h1n1 and the X borrowed a is

784
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:29,679
heaven 2010 I'm just going to draw that

785
00:32:37,019 --> 00:32:33,970
up man this is a half mil dose out of

786
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:37,029
that multi-dose vial right ok this is

787
00:32:42,090 --> 00:32:40,450
going to the intramuscular in your

788
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:42,100
looked at two band-aids at all nothing

789
00:32:47,070 --> 00:32:44,320
much ok just relax you're up mm-hmm

790
00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:47,080
that's it just ok here we go

791
00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:50,350
just going in now pushing it in gently I

792
00:33:00,269 --> 00:32:53,200
better head at all that's good all

793
00:33:03,419 --> 00:33:00,279
finished fantastic just put hyde park in

794
00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:03,429
the bed now lay down below there you go

795
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:05,740
do I get a lollipop I'll give you a

796
00:33:11,549 --> 00:33:08,799
favor you know what we like with you is

797
00:33:14,490 --> 00:33:11,559
not of it mm-hmm you can move your arm

798
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:14,500
just as normal yep and what I'm going to

799
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:16,570
do is give you this is your record and

800
00:33:20,430 --> 00:33:18,250
your vaccinations to after vaccination

801
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:20,440
and the possible side effects and what

802
00:33:26,909 --> 00:33:23,110
to do about it fantastic if you'll have

803
00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:26,919
retired one of the rare reactions which

804
00:33:31,649 --> 00:33:28,600
usually happens within the first few

805
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:31,659
minutes and you would actually go to

806
00:33:36,629 --> 00:33:34,570
your doctor or go to emergency if it

807
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:36,639
didn't happen here ok if you have any

808
00:33:40,139 --> 00:33:37,870
swelling what difficulty breathing

809
00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:40,149
anything like that the minor reactions

810
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:41,740
we still would like to hear about what

811
00:33:46,649 --> 00:33:44,080
we call more serious of the minor ones

812
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:46,659
I'd say if you got swell swelling right

813
00:33:51,539 --> 00:33:49,330
down arm or anything like that in here

814
00:33:53,460 --> 00:33:51,549
we like feedback on them ok at there's

815
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:53,470
no preference and the other thing is

816
00:33:57,870 --> 00:33:55,840
will require you wait in the waiting

817
00:33:59,730 --> 00:33:57,880
room for 15 minutes notta brought one

818
00:34:03,769 --> 00:33:59,740
all vaccinations excellent thank you

819
00:34:10,309 --> 00:34:05,659
well that's all done and over I've just

820
00:34:14,569 --> 00:34:10,319
walked out of the clinic and I'm now the

821
00:34:17,629 --> 00:34:14,579
proud bearer of the h1n1 vaccine that's

822
00:34:20,539 --> 00:34:17,639
sitting in my arm doing its work haven't

823
00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:20,549
grown a third head or a second header

824
00:34:34,490 --> 00:34:24,089
for that model and that was all very

825
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:34,500
easy have you ever wondered why it

826
00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:36,450
supposedly took God seven days to create

827
00:34:40,819 --> 00:34:38,669
the world I mean if your God why not

828
00:34:42,289 --> 00:34:40,829
just do it in one day he ever thought

829
00:34:44,089 --> 00:34:42,299
that some religions have too much

830
00:34:45,470 --> 00:34:44,099
influence in our society that laws

831
00:34:47,629 --> 00:34:45,480
should be based on rational thought and

832
00:34:50,029 --> 00:34:47,639
evidence and not unprovable personal

833
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:50,039
beliefs the global atheist convention

834
00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:52,079
will be held in Melbourne in March 2010

835
00:34:55,819 --> 00:34:53,700
it will be the largest gathering of

836
00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:55,829
atheists rationalist skeptics free

837
00:34:59,630 --> 00:34:57,660
thinkers and other like-minded people in

838
00:35:01,220 --> 00:34:59,640
Australia's history the presenter list

839
00:35:02,980 --> 00:35:01,230
is incredible and includes Richard

840
00:35:05,299 --> 00:35:02,990
Dawkins author of The God Delusion

841
00:35:06,859 --> 00:35:05,309
Katherine Deveny comedian and regular

842
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:06,869
rider in Melbourne is the aged newspaper

843
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:08,970
and PZ Myers author of the world's

844
00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:11,160
top-ranked science blog pharyngula plus

845
00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:13,500
many more this is a unique opportunity

846
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:15,180
here from remarkable presenters and meet

847
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:16,770
other people who just might think about

848
00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:18,930
religion and society the same way you do

849
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:21,630
don't miss out go to atheist convention

850
00:35:27,710 --> 00:35:23,910
or go you for more information and

851
00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:30,710
who join us now for drinking skeptically

852
00:35:44,849 --> 00:35:42,660
and welcome to the think tank hello Joe

853
00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:44,859
and in a mood good evening Richard good

854
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:47,020
evening and dr. AG of course hello

855
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:49,810
Richard you choose to you Joe to cling

856
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:51,850
cling cling cling cling cling we're back

857
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:53,530
in our favorite room in our favorite

858
00:35:57,060 --> 00:35:55,119
club last week you'll remember what a

859
00:35:59,190 --> 00:35:57,070
couple of weeks ago we were forced out

860
00:36:03,120 --> 00:35:59,200
into the restaurant we were forced out

861
00:36:05,099 --> 00:36:03,130
against our will yes I mean we survived

862
00:36:06,690 --> 00:36:05,109
we've just been to the restaurant now

863
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:06,700
we're back in our favorite room which is

864
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:08,650
quite near the restaurant which is quite

865
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:10,480
lucky I think we're all in a somewhat of

866
00:36:16,859 --> 00:36:14,250
a postprandial state right now so yes

867
00:36:18,810 --> 00:36:16,869
hyperglycemic right now I had satay

868
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:18,820
chicken what did you hurt I had big

869
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:21,340
chill me mmm Joe Dalton pepper chicken

870
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:25,030
again again and I ate somebody's dessert

871
00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:26,290
i think was yours you ain't much

872
00:36:31,410 --> 00:36:29,380
Rachel's dessert I Jose did he try to

873
00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:31,420
eat yours too uh he tried but there

874
00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:34,300
wasn't much of it two steals oh please

875
00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:36,660
bastiaan discerned isn't this time ah

876
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:40,180
now before we get into some interesting

877
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:42,880
items which are ladies have found for us

878
00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:45,130
a couple of items which has come my way

879
00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:51,550
ladies ladies sorry I'm gonna like being

880
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:55,240
naughty where no ladies listen thank you

881
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:56,560
to all the people who have been

882
00:37:00,210 --> 00:36:58,450
commenting on the last episode of the

883
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:00,220
skeptic zone now this was the interview

884
00:37:05,250 --> 00:37:02,800
that the Iran so give conducted with Ian

885
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:05,260
Harris Professor Ian Harris an

886
00:37:12,420 --> 00:37:09,280
orthopedic surgeon it's caused a lot of

887
00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:12,430
chat a lot of controversy and if you

888
00:37:16,050 --> 00:37:14,470
haven't heard the interview if this is

889
00:37:17,609 --> 00:37:16,060
your first episode of the skeptics and

890
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:17,619
we'll have a listen to the last one we

891
00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:20,650
did and you can you too can add your

892
00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:22,270
comments it's a it's quite interesting

893
00:37:25,890 --> 00:37:23,800
quite interesting thank you to other

894
00:37:29,930 --> 00:37:25,900
people who have taken time to comment

895
00:37:33,890 --> 00:37:29,940
i'd also like to plug the skeptical blog

896
00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:33,900
anthology 2009 you can check that out at

897
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:38,380
WWE young skeptics com got a you /

898
00:37:43,230 --> 00:37:40,450
anthology and that's the young

899
00:37:47,220 --> 00:37:43,240
Australian skeptics which is young a us

900
00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:47,230
skeptics calm so check those out that's

901
00:37:50,730 --> 00:37:49,300
in conjunction with us as well Richard

902
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:50,740
yeah highly asked

903
00:37:54,090 --> 00:37:52,090
just set that up with the young

904
00:37:55,890 --> 00:37:54,100
Australian skeptics she certainly did

905
00:37:58,740 --> 00:37:55,900
she's a busy girl she's very busy very

906
00:38:01,980 --> 00:37:58,750
busy now listen has brought this to my

907
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:01,990
attention that the ABC television here

908
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:05,650
in Australia have the gall the

909
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:13,030
unmitigated gall the her the the the

910
00:38:19,980 --> 00:38:16,720
hood spa Joe I might say yes the hood

911
00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:19,990
spa yes to repeat that appalling show

912
00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:24,460
psychic investigator which they and the

913
00:38:29,609 --> 00:38:26,590
ABC one about two or three years ago the

914
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:29,619
Australian skeptics bent spoon prize for

915
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:32,530
the year for this rubbish however

916
00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:34,240
they're repeating it at something like 5

917
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:37,360
30 or 50 for thirty in the morning which

918
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:39,010
where it belongs no it doesn't long even

919
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:42,160
better anyway vision at all it doesn't

920
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:44,160
blow on any television no it doesn't I

921
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:46,450
mean it doesn't even belong in history

922
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:49,810
should be erased psychic investigators

923
00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:51,730
if you feel like punishing yourself list

924
00:38:57,180 --> 00:38:54,280
listeners in Australia set your VCRs or

925
00:38:59,160 --> 00:38:57,190
digital recorders or stay up late check

926
00:39:02,760 --> 00:38:59,170
your guides for psychic investigators

927
00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:02,770
it's complete drivel and it won the bent

928
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:05,350
spoon on board it's similar to sensing

929
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:06,970
murder which our new zealand listeners

930
00:39:11,370 --> 00:39:08,230
are being subjected to at the moment

931
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:11,380
isn't it Richard it is which is about

932
00:39:16,590 --> 00:39:14,170
psychics allegedly solving crimes are

933
00:39:19,050 --> 00:39:16,600
assisting in solving crimes as I said a

934
00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:19,060
couple of weeks ago the number of crime

935
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:21,640
solved by sensing murder rhymes with

936
00:39:30,030 --> 00:39:27,490
zero what else do we have our good

937
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:30,040
friend Ben Radford the psychic

938
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:31,510
investigator and the paranormal

939
00:39:37,470 --> 00:39:33,730
investigator generally I mean apparently

940
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:37,480
he's got a short film our sirens and

941
00:39:40,950 --> 00:39:39,070
that's going to be appearing in Sydney

942
00:39:43,740 --> 00:39:40,960
here I think you can find out more

943
00:39:47,250 --> 00:39:43,750
information appearing in Sydney on the

944
00:39:49,859 --> 00:39:47,260
thirtieth of October and you can find

945
00:39:54,599 --> 00:39:49,869
out more information at fantastic planet

946
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:54,609
film festival com Ben Radford is a top

947
00:39:59,200 --> 00:39:57,280
bloke he's an investigator works with it

948
00:40:03,070 --> 00:39:59,210
than for CSI I think

949
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:03,080
boo furniture nickel absolutely now

950
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:04,960
that's the science fiction science

951
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:07,970
festival film festival that we've seen

952
00:40:12,609 --> 00:40:09,920
advertised on posters around the yeah

953
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:12,619
that's right yeah yeah we're checking up

954
00:40:15,130 --> 00:40:13,970
please please have a look at that people

955
00:40:17,620 --> 00:40:15,140
in Sydney I think I'll be checking that

956
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:17,630
out myself I'd like to give a shout out

957
00:40:24,430 --> 00:40:20,510
to we've had a request to mention the

958
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:24,440
blob um who are they be you must society

959
00:40:30,670 --> 00:40:27,440
Minister Society of Victoria new website

960
00:40:33,010 --> 00:40:30,680
now that's there can be found via their

961
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:33,020
meetup which I suggest you go to if

962
00:40:37,170 --> 00:40:34,160
you're interested in that sort of thing

963
00:40:40,839 --> 00:40:37,180
in your in Melbourne which is meetup.com

964
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:40,849
Melbourne humanists check that out too

965
00:40:47,620 --> 00:40:45,290
and we will turn the page over here and

966
00:40:49,570 --> 00:40:47,630
I think that's just about it but we

967
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:49,580
wanted to mention another skeptics in

968
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:51,650
the pub Richard that start up and you're

969
00:40:56,349 --> 00:40:54,050
doing we did Dunedin yeah don't in

970
00:40:58,690 --> 00:40:56,359
Dunedin skeptics in the pub is can there

971
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,700
be a city can there be a major city

972
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:00,560
anywhere in the world but now doesn't

973
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:02,450
have a skeptics in the pub I wonder

974
00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:05,599
possibly Tehran well Queenstown hasn't

975
00:41:13,329 --> 00:41:08,950
got one yet in New Zealand have they

976
00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:13,339
queenstown if you're interested Jaden's

977
00:41:18,220 --> 00:41:15,790
beat you to the pit to the pipe however

978
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:18,230
anybody who has a skeptics in the pub

979
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:20,960
especially in New Zealand are chris is

980
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:22,730
close to Australia and you're feeling

981
00:41:29,339 --> 00:41:24,560
generous there are some skeptics are

982
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:29,349
members in D long-term to come over and

983
00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:31,790
it's not expensive device Leah there

984
00:41:35,290 --> 00:41:33,380
will come over we'll give a talk will

985
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:35,300
numb your food and it'll be great fun

986
00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:37,250
anyway you know actually there's very

987
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:39,920
cheap tickets on the emirates a380 to

988
00:41:44,770 --> 00:41:42,470
Auckland yeah now Dunedin skeptics in

989
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:44,780
the pub have a meetup group too but I

990
00:41:49,329 --> 00:41:46,690
think if you just go to meet up and

991
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:49,339
search for done eatin skeptics in the

992
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,440
pub I think you'd be right that's really

993
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:53,599
exciting because the orkin skeptics in

994
00:41:59,079 --> 00:41:56,210
the pub is only a few weeks old mmm

995
00:42:02,500 --> 00:41:59,089
their first skeptics in the pub was just

996
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:02,510
after dragoncon wasn't that way oh that

997
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:05,089
was very successful yeah and in fact we

998
00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:06,090
had

999
00:42:10,610 --> 00:42:09,180
oh sure we didn't yes yes it's exciting

1000
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:10,620
that delayed ins going that's really

1001
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:12,330
know it's fantastic and the fact I think

1002
00:42:18,050 --> 00:42:14,760
honestly we should go I think we should

1003
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:18,060
Christ Church has 12 don't know I think

1004
00:42:21,890 --> 00:42:20,130
so because that's the way of the head of

1005
00:42:24,110 --> 00:42:21,900
the New Zealand skeptic yeah you're

1006
00:42:26,540 --> 00:42:24,120
Vicki hide you he lives there yeah there

1007
00:42:27,710 --> 00:42:26,550
must be one in Christchurch and it was

1008
00:42:28,970 --> 00:42:27,720
so many good for hot pubs in

1009
00:42:32,420 --> 00:42:28,980
christchurch by the way Richard bit

1010
00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:32,430
anyway there's a great brewery there is

1011
00:42:38,660 --> 00:42:34,200
it yeah I mean maybe we'd have the

1012
00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:38,670
skeptics in the pub crawl Skillex in the

1013
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:42,300
pub crawl like the Sabbath thank you Sam

1014
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:43,770
you can get these great cuz you'll be

1015
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:46,170
crawling you finished you can get these

1016
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:48,930
great beer tasting trees in Christchurch

1017
00:42:54,350 --> 00:42:50,910
and I can't remember the year very

1018
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:54,360
tasting tree trees yes so it actually

1019
00:42:59,180 --> 00:42:57,570
it's a would reduce your hbu no no it's

1020
00:43:01,580 --> 00:42:59,190
a wooden structure shaped like a tree

1021
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:01,590
and it has glasses that are about the

1022
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:05,040
size and say a spice rack mice and they

1023
00:43:08,930 --> 00:43:07,170
sort of hang on the on the rack and then

1024
00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:08,940
they give you a selection of about ten

1025
00:43:13,580 --> 00:43:11,300
different beers for you to taste yeah

1026
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:13,590
and I can't remember the name of the

1027
00:43:18,170 --> 00:43:16,290
brewery and its really good beer so I'm

1028
00:43:21,050 --> 00:43:18,180
sure somebody my research listeners

1029
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:21,060
please if there's one called um Rachel

1030
00:43:28,010 --> 00:43:25,410
excuse and duck no TV so Rachel at

1031
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:28,020
skipping zoned on TV yeah email me I

1032
00:43:31,370 --> 00:43:29,520
couldn't I'll think of it later i'm sure

1033
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:31,380
i'll remember later now for our

1034
00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:34,410
listeners sake rachy if they want to

1035
00:43:38,750 --> 00:43:35,940
follow you on twitter what's your

1036
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:38,760
twitter name dr. Reggie at dr. etjole

1037
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:44,400
our minds Joe been hmoo Jo benh am you

1038
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:47,910
and me which is really the show is at a

1039
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:52,800
skeptic zone of course all right let's

1040
00:43:58,070 --> 00:43:55,050
kick off our general news section with

1041
00:44:02,320 --> 00:43:58,080
news on Simon Singh a good friend yes a

1042
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:02,330
good friend Simon Singh he was granted

1043
00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:07,410
permission to undergo a full appeal in

1044
00:44:12,740 --> 00:44:10,670
his case of libel that's currently being

1045
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:12,750
brought against him by the British

1046
00:44:17,870 --> 00:44:15,330
Chiropractic Association now some of our

1047
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:17,880
listeners may remember that his first

1048
00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:19,930
preliminary hearing

1049
00:44:27,310 --> 00:44:25,280
the judge which was mr. justice 80 he

1050
00:44:30,910 --> 00:44:27,320
ruled on the definition of the word

1051
00:44:33,870 --> 00:44:30,920
bogus and he ruled that this meant the

1052
00:44:36,610 --> 00:44:33,880
BCA were deliberately and knowingly

1053
00:44:39,190 --> 00:44:36,620
deceiving the public by saying that some

1054
00:44:41,170 --> 00:44:39,200
of their treatments to cured or could

1055
00:44:43,540 --> 00:44:41,180
treat things like colic for example and

1056
00:44:44,820 --> 00:44:43,550
that was the point of Simon's original

1057
00:44:46,690 --> 00:44:44,830
article was that they said that

1058
00:44:49,870 --> 00:44:46,700
chiropractic could treat colic and

1059
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,880
babies now he decided to take this to

1060
00:44:54,850 --> 00:44:51,920
appeal because he didn't believe that

1061
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:54,860
was a fair judgment and so it was

1062
00:44:58,030 --> 00:44:56,210
difficult wasn't it for him to do that

1063
00:45:02,140 --> 00:44:58,040
very very difficult and potentially very

1064
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:02,150
expensive because it may have failed but

1065
00:45:10,090 --> 00:45:06,310
in any case it didn't it was successful

1066
00:45:15,610 --> 00:45:10,100
the court judged this time whose name is

1067
00:45:17,290 --> 00:45:15,620
Lord Justice laws interestingly he was

1068
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:17,300
presiding over the appeal and he was

1069
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:18,770
actually quite scathing at the original

1070
00:45:25,060 --> 00:45:21,770
ruling and in some of the commentary

1071
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:25,070
that I read surrounding this ruling he

1072
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:26,470
was quoted as calling it

1073
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:29,690
disproportionate and erroneous really

1074
00:45:35,290 --> 00:45:31,850
yeah the other two strong it is quite

1075
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:35,300
strong so Simon's lawyers had submitted

1076
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:38,960
our extensive documentation to the court

1077
00:45:44,260 --> 00:45:42,170
prior to the hearing the vca was not

1078
00:45:46,990 --> 00:45:44,270
actually allowed to come to the appeal

1079
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:47,000
hearing I was actually not allowed to go

1080
00:45:50,470 --> 00:45:48,410
I was just heard that they had an

1081
00:45:52,060 --> 00:45:50,480
attendant I know initially I heard that

1082
00:45:54,970 --> 00:45:52,070
they didn't hurt that they didn't they

1083
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:54,980
weren't there but then I read I think on

1084
00:45:58,600 --> 00:45:56,330
Jack of Kent's blog that they weren't

1085
00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:58,610
allowed to go because it was an appeal

1086
00:46:04,990 --> 00:46:01,520
I'm not exactly sure but they weren't

1087
00:46:08,010 --> 00:46:05,000
there so Simon has now been given

1088
00:46:11,020 --> 00:46:08,020
permission to go away and come and

1089
00:46:15,130 --> 00:46:11,030
construct an appeal based on the

1090
00:46:17,650 --> 00:46:15,140
original ruling so it's still going to

1091
00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:17,660
be a long hard road for him it's still

1092
00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:19,400
going to be very difficult case but at

1093
00:46:22,780 --> 00:46:20,960
least he has been given this some

1094
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:22,790
opportunity now on victory at the time

1095
00:46:28,630 --> 00:46:25,730
yes so we send our good wishes to Simon

1096
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:28,640
and of course he's had lots and lots of

1097
00:46:33,690 --> 00:46:31,510
support sense about science have been

1098
00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:33,700
very very active

1099
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:35,840
getting people making people aware of

1100
00:46:39,130 --> 00:46:37,730
what's been happening and of course the

1101
00:46:41,110 --> 00:46:39,140
overall point of this case and we've

1102
00:46:44,140 --> 00:46:41,120
discussed this before and the publicity

1103
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:44,150
campaign is to make people aware at the

1104
00:46:48,430 --> 00:46:46,610
dangers of the library laws yeah well

1105
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:48,440
there is potential restrictive pneus of

1106
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:50,480
the liability they might be changed

1107
00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:52,010
because of this case well this is what

1108
00:46:56,530 --> 00:46:53,660
this is all about there's so many

1109
00:46:59,440 --> 00:46:56,540
powerful and respected voices that have

1110
00:47:04,030 --> 00:46:59,450
gotten behind it that and I think it

1111
00:47:05,890 --> 00:47:04,040
really does force the the British legal

1112
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:05,900
system to set up and take notice and

1113
00:47:11,590 --> 00:47:08,510
look at what those laws Exel and who

1114
00:47:13,450 --> 00:47:11,600
knows after this case is through Simon

1115
00:47:17,020 --> 00:47:13,460
Singh might even need some spiritual

1116
00:47:19,450 --> 00:47:17,030
cleansing do you like that so well that

1117
00:47:21,730 --> 00:47:19,460
was just before we go on to that segue

1118
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,740
can I just remind our listeners if you

1119
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:23,680
haven't been to sense about science

1120
00:47:28,860 --> 00:47:26,210
please go there and sign the petition

1121
00:47:32,380 --> 00:47:28,870
mmm which has been signed by people like

1122
00:47:35,110 --> 00:47:32,390
Stephen Fry Ricky Gervais is to do

1123
00:47:39,390 --> 00:47:35,120
ourselves Richard Dawkins Joanne better

1124
00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:39,400
move which is basically expressing your

1125
00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:43,430
disapproval for the laws in the UK so

1126
00:47:46,570 --> 00:47:44,990
and you can keep up to date with what's

1127
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:46,580
happening through that as well they sent

1128
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:50,210
very good dumb updates yeah and also the

1129
00:47:53,620 --> 00:47:51,890
BCA unhappy about sense about science

1130
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:53,630
doing that either they think that

1131
00:47:59,500 --> 00:47:55,130
they're running a campaign against them

1132
00:48:02,220 --> 00:47:59,510
or something dear dear dear yes so you

1133
00:48:04,270 --> 00:48:02,230
mentioned spiritual cleansing Richard

1134
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:04,280
what would you like to know about that

1135
00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:07,370
where can I get it well Jonny knows

1136
00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:09,830
about this too I think this is a story

1137
00:48:17,590 --> 00:48:14,300
about a a spiritual cleansing session

1138
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:17,600
which was run by james arthur ray and he

1139
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:19,610
runs a spiritual retreat in arizona in

1140
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:23,210
the united states basically he charges

1141
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:25,370
about 10,000 u.s. dollars for people to

1142
00:48:31,180 --> 00:48:27,770
come and have a spiritual awakening and

1143
00:48:32,830 --> 00:48:31,190
realize their true abilities i wish i

1144
00:48:35,140 --> 00:48:32,840
had to charge ten thousand and my

1145
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:35,150
understanding about this guy's that he

1146
00:48:39,970 --> 00:48:38,090
was the man behind the secret well that

1147
00:48:42,730 --> 00:48:39,980
he had something here i'm actually not

1148
00:48:44,290 --> 00:48:42,740
completely accurate initially when this

1149
00:48:45,980 --> 00:48:44,300
happened because basically what happened

1150
00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:45,990
was he was running this

1151
00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:49,369
retreat and he had you know very small

1152
00:48:57,290 --> 00:48:52,020
what he what was known as a sweat sauna

1153
00:48:58,520 --> 00:48:57,300
he had about 60 55 to 65 people I'm he

1154
00:49:00,590 --> 00:48:58,530
were all sitting in complete blackness

1155
00:49:04,070 --> 00:49:00,600
with the temperature elevated to above

1156
00:49:07,310 --> 00:49:04,080
was about over 55 degrees I think some

1157
00:49:09,140 --> 00:49:07,320
Celsius really which is I mean I've

1158
00:49:11,330 --> 00:49:09,150
hundred twenty degrees Fahrenheit I've

1159
00:49:13,490 --> 00:49:11,340
been in one nice live in Germany i went

1160
00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:13,500
to used to go quite often persona to the

1161
00:49:18,620 --> 00:49:16,830
bad house and some of those saunas get

1162
00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:18,630
pretty hot and it's pretty hard that i

1163
00:49:23,180 --> 00:49:20,790
can tell you hmm well in this case some

1164
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:23,190
two people actually died actually a

1165
00:49:27,620 --> 00:49:25,410
third persons died i read a third person

1166
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:27,630
died after being admitted to hospital

1167
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,760
two people died on site and 19 were

1168
00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:31,440
taken to hospital suffering from

1169
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:34,800
dehydration burns respiratory arrest and

1170
00:49:38,090 --> 00:49:36,450
kidney failure and this was thought to

1171
00:49:39,590 --> 00:49:38,100
be associated not just with lack of

1172
00:49:41,810 --> 00:49:39,600
oxygen but with the elevated

1173
00:49:44,359 --> 00:49:41,820
temperatures and also overcrowding in

1174
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:44,369
the spot in the sauna because it was

1175
00:49:48,590 --> 00:49:46,170
pitch black nobody knew that these

1176
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:48,600
people had basically dropped dead during

1177
00:49:51,950 --> 00:49:50,130
this session and the session went for up

1178
00:49:54,830 --> 00:49:51,960
to a was scheduled to go out for about

1179
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:54,840
two hours and think so because I think

1180
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:57,570
this ritual has some sort of Native

1181
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:00,480
American tradition yeah I think that's

1182
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:01,890
true yeah and they were interviewing

1183
00:50:06,740 --> 00:50:04,530
people from the from those traditions

1184
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:06,750
who were saying that typically this this

1185
00:50:12,770 --> 00:50:09,570
ritual normally is supposed to take no

1186
00:50:15,230 --> 00:50:12,780
more than about 15 minutes and that you

1187
00:50:17,150 --> 00:50:15,240
know this this ritual in this case the

1188
00:50:19,460 --> 00:50:17,160
spiritual cleansing is going as Rachel

1189
00:50:21,620 --> 00:50:19,470
said for almost two hours that's

1190
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:21,630
ridiculous I mean again having have my

1191
00:50:24,770 --> 00:50:23,250
experience on the sauna receive stats

1192
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:24,780
you sit in there for a little while and

1193
00:50:28,970 --> 00:50:27,090
then it feels pretty good and then it

1194
00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:28,980
starts to get a bit much it jump out you

1195
00:50:31,940 --> 00:50:30,630
jump to a cold forward and if you like

1196
00:50:34,849 --> 00:50:31,950
you're gonna pass out yeah you go back

1197
00:50:37,580 --> 00:50:34,859
in again like we did but two hours is

1198
00:50:39,020 --> 00:50:37,590
crazy crazy well you're right Joe I mean

1199
00:50:42,410 --> 00:50:39,030
it says in this news article here from

1200
00:50:44,780 --> 00:50:42,420
times online in the UK that I'm it has

1201
00:50:46,670 --> 00:50:44,790
this the whole situation has outraged

1202
00:50:48,859 --> 00:50:46,680
many Native Americans who complained

1203
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:48,869
that their tribal traditions were being

1204
00:50:54,770 --> 00:50:52,530
hijacked by quacks charlatans and what

1205
00:50:57,140 --> 00:50:54,780
one tribal leader described as imitation

1206
00:50:58,670 --> 00:50:57,150
Indians well I mean that's actually a

1207
00:51:01,780 --> 00:50:58,680
very interesting point and and I

1208
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:01,790
I'm spoken about that previously in

1209
00:51:08,570 --> 00:51:05,910
regards to other things so many of the

1210
00:51:12,190 --> 00:51:08,580
the traditional rituals of various

1211
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:12,200
cultures I think have been hijacked by

1212
00:51:18,830 --> 00:51:15,920
Westerners seeking some sort of

1213
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:18,840
spiritualism and often it just

1214
00:51:25,790 --> 00:51:22,770
completely it just takes it completely a

1215
00:51:27,590 --> 00:51:25,800
out of its context and regardless of

1216
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:27,600
whether there's any sort of basis in

1217
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:30,000
reality for what's being done in those

1218
00:51:37,490 --> 00:51:33,710
traditions it's just it's completely um

1219
00:51:41,420 --> 00:51:37,500
bastardized even even things like the

1220
00:51:43,580 --> 00:51:41,430
way a lot of Eastern philosophy is used

1221
00:51:46,820 --> 00:51:43,590
in things like therapeutic touch and

1222
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:46,830
various other sort of strange well it's

1223
00:51:51,050 --> 00:51:49,050
like the hoppy ear candles isn't it and

1224
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:51,060
it's supposed to be derived from the

1225
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:53,040
hoppy tribe which is actually completely

1226
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:55,710
untrue they in fact just hijack that to

1227
00:51:59,660 --> 00:51:57,690
make it sound like it had a basis in

1228
00:52:01,430 --> 00:51:59,670
some sort of mister Cee's yeah which is

1229
00:52:02,990 --> 00:52:01,440
not true but you mentioned earlier that

1230
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:03,000
you thought this guy had something to do

1231
00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:05,730
with the secret initial news report said

1232
00:52:09,860 --> 00:52:07,500
that he had been involved in the writing

1233
00:52:12,860 --> 00:52:09,870
of the secret but when I did some

1234
00:52:17,420 --> 00:52:12,870
further digging I found that he had been

1235
00:52:19,790 --> 00:52:17,430
because he's basically a um he's hit he

1236
00:52:22,670 --> 00:52:19,800
espouses a theory called harmonic wealth

1237
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:22,680
which employ knives as well yeah I like

1238
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:26,160
the sound of a boy are you wealthy I

1239
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:29,370
like the signal moving right along okay

1240
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:32,010
he emphasizes the power of positive

1241
00:52:36,890 --> 00:52:34,650
thinking and achieving success which is

1242
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:36,900
similar basis to the secret obviously so

1243
00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:40,170
he's been invited on to speak on oprah

1244
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:43,200
winfrey show a couple of times yeah

1245
00:52:49,220 --> 00:52:45,810
which brings me to another sort of arm

1246
00:52:52,910 --> 00:52:49,230
to this story in fact there was another

1247
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:52,920
story based around this incident which

1248
00:52:58,840 --> 00:52:56,130
really had a go at Oprah around this

1249
00:53:02,600 --> 00:52:58,850
sort of promoting these quacks who

1250
00:53:04,310 --> 00:53:02,610
talked about you know getting getting

1251
00:53:06,620 --> 00:53:04,320
what you want from thinking about it and

1252
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:06,630
positive thinking because I think you

1253
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:08,610
might remember you both of you might

1254
00:53:11,150 --> 00:53:10,050
remember a few months ago there was a

1255
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:11,160
story

1256
00:53:15,950 --> 00:53:13,410
written in was at Newsweek I think yes

1257
00:53:18,650 --> 00:53:15,960
criticizing Oprah for the phone yes and

1258
00:53:21,170 --> 00:53:18,660
it was called bad medicine yes yes yes

1259
00:53:23,060 --> 00:53:21,180
famous famous reporting yeah and how she

1260
00:53:25,610 --> 00:53:23,070
invites all these quacks onto her show

1261
00:53:27,350 --> 00:53:25,620
and then you know just by having a mere

1262
00:53:29,450 --> 00:53:27,360
that lends some legitimacy and then and

1263
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:29,460
then actually responded by saying that

1264
00:53:32,750 --> 00:53:30,810
all that she was doing is providing

1265
00:53:35,330 --> 00:53:32,760
information and that her audience

1266
00:53:37,220 --> 00:53:35,340
members were quite capable of deducing

1267
00:53:38,990 --> 00:53:37,230
for themselves whether or not the

1268
00:53:41,450 --> 00:53:39,000
information is actually worth following

1269
00:53:45,110 --> 00:53:41,460
that's correct year she did but this

1270
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:45,120
article here from the times online in

1271
00:53:49,220 --> 00:53:47,610
the UK says that she needs to probably

1272
00:53:51,110 --> 00:53:49,230
start really thinking about her

1273
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:51,120
endorsement of people like this because

1274
00:53:56,180 --> 00:53:53,970
he has been on her show and as a result

1275
00:53:59,060 --> 00:53:56,190
of his quackery three people are now

1276
00:54:00,500 --> 00:53:59,070
dead and there are still over a dozen in

1277
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:00,510
hospital we could say the same thing

1278
00:54:05,090 --> 00:54:03,330
about certain a Current Affair shows in

1279
00:54:08,420 --> 00:54:05,100
this country without promote anybody

1280
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:08,430
yeah well I think Joe is going to talk

1281
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:09,930
about this a little bit too but in this

1282
00:54:15,050 --> 00:54:12,240
article they mentioned that Winfrey

1283
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:15,060
loves the likes of Suzanne Somers who

1284
00:54:19,610 --> 00:54:16,170
you're going to talk about in a minute

1285
00:54:21,860 --> 00:54:19,620
zone but also jenny mccarthy whom we all

1286
00:54:23,630 --> 00:54:21,870
familiar with which this article cites

1287
00:54:26,750 --> 00:54:23,640
as a former Playboy model and the

1288
00:54:28,370 --> 00:54:26,760
girlfriend of jim carrey who appeared on

1289
00:54:31,850 --> 00:54:28,380
oprah' to warn against the MMR

1290
00:54:33,620 --> 00:54:31,860
vaccination and it also mentions here

1291
00:54:35,780 --> 00:54:33,630
that Winfrey was embarrassed when a

1292
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:35,790
series of memoir memoirs she had

1293
00:54:39,710 --> 00:54:37,970
promoted turned out to have been bogus

1294
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:39,720
now don't know if you remember this

1295
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:41,520
story there was a guy called James Frey

1296
00:54:46,790 --> 00:54:44,400
as he wrote a book about his surviving

1297
00:54:49,010 --> 00:54:46,800
the holocaust on account of Holocaust

1298
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:49,020
survival and it turned out to be

1299
00:54:54,290 --> 00:54:51,930
absolute fabrication yes this was

1300
00:54:56,030 --> 00:54:54,300
actually a really unpleasant this this

1301
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:56,040
man if it's the one I'm thinking of this

1302
00:55:01,130 --> 00:54:59,040
man wrote wrote this book claiming I

1303
00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:01,140
think to have been in I think he claimed

1304
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:02,700
to have been in Auschwitz or rum

1305
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:07,290
Treblinka and if if this is correct he

1306
00:55:13,820 --> 00:55:10,890
claimed to have met his wife while in

1307
00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:13,830
the camp and they had fallen in love and

1308
00:55:18,770 --> 00:55:16,260
they'd written this whole he written so

1309
00:55:21,309 --> 00:55:18,780
book about their story and how they love

1310
00:55:24,999 --> 00:55:21,319
had survived this whole

1311
00:55:26,999 --> 00:55:25,009
horrific internment and it turned out

1312
00:55:30,420 --> 00:55:27,009
that I think they were you know

1313
00:55:32,709 --> 00:55:30,430
american-born coupled from Long Island

1314
00:55:34,509 --> 00:55:32,719
lived there their entire I haven't had

1315
00:55:37,299 --> 00:55:34,519
fabricated anti story what was so

1316
00:55:40,839 --> 00:55:37,309
terrible about it was that it's exactly

1317
00:55:43,660 --> 00:55:40,849
this kind of thing that you know and as

1318
00:55:45,279 --> 00:55:43,670
we often say the fact that anyone should

1319
00:55:48,759 --> 00:55:45,289
need to prove that the Holocaust

1320
00:55:50,620 --> 00:55:48,769
happened is a travesty that in this day

1321
00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:50,630
and age which anyone should even have to

1322
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:52,430
provide evidence to anyone the Holocaust

1323
00:55:58,299 --> 00:55:54,410
happened is appalling and this man's

1324
00:55:59,769 --> 00:55:58,309
story puts Holocaust scholars in a

1325
00:56:03,759 --> 00:55:59,779
position where they're having to somehow

1326
00:56:06,370 --> 00:56:03,769
justify and prove and what he did really

1327
00:56:08,589 --> 00:56:06,380
did a lot of damage to do that so it was

1328
00:56:09,759 --> 00:56:08,599
quite unpleasant little episode it's

1329
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:09,769
funny though Joe because it was

1330
00:56:13,809 --> 00:56:11,839
described by Oprah as and I quote the

1331
00:56:17,380 --> 00:56:13,819
greatest single love story we've ever

1332
00:56:18,849 --> 00:56:17,390
told on the air and I think that was

1333
00:56:20,979 --> 00:56:18,859
what was so awful about it was that if

1334
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:20,989
this man had written the story as a

1335
00:56:25,979 --> 00:56:23,690
piece of fiction hmm it will probably

1336
00:56:28,209 --> 00:56:25,989
still have been a very beautiful tale

1337
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:28,219
but the fact that he made it and

1338
00:56:33,699 --> 00:56:30,410
presented as fact and the fact that

1339
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:33,709
Oprah of course endorsed you know

1340
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:36,049
Oprah's name on anything you've said it

1341
00:56:40,479 --> 00:56:37,910
ringing it's a it's a number one seller

1342
00:56:42,130 --> 00:56:40,489
immediately I can't help thinking it's

1343
00:56:44,579 --> 00:56:42,140
just crossed my mind there is a strange

1344
00:56:48,670 --> 00:56:44,589
correlation here between that story and

1345
00:56:52,839 --> 00:56:48,680
irregular mm-hmm in so much as that if

1346
00:56:55,630 --> 00:56:52,849
Erie Geller and said he is a magician

1347
00:56:58,509 --> 00:56:55,640
and look at this great action today he

1348
00:57:01,180 --> 00:56:58,519
would be a hero of fun entertainment and

1349
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:01,190
probably skepticism science you know but

1350
00:57:07,839 --> 00:57:04,249
no he had to he had to myself it and

1351
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:07,849
make out it was real so it it's an

1352
00:57:11,769 --> 00:57:10,160
interesting just crushed my mother but

1353
00:57:14,859 --> 00:57:11,779
but it reminds me a little bit of how

1354
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:14,869
you know I've often felt about people

1355
00:57:20,739 --> 00:57:18,319
who don't see the wonder of the universe

1356
00:57:23,979 --> 00:57:20,749
as it stands and need something mystical

1357
00:57:26,049 --> 00:57:23,989
and supernatural to give it wonder I

1358
00:57:29,860 --> 00:57:26,059
mean if you can't look at the universe

1359
00:57:32,260 --> 00:57:29,870
around us and not think holy crap

1360
00:57:34,900 --> 00:57:32,270
then you're kind of missing yeah yes oh

1361
00:57:36,660 --> 00:57:34,910
well yes suzanne somers is another one

1362
00:57:41,350 --> 00:57:36,670
of oprah winfrey's favorite little

1363
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:41,360
endorsements um so many of you would

1364
00:57:47,590 --> 00:57:44,570
probably remember her from her about yes

1365
00:57:49,930 --> 00:57:47,600
three I don't know me absolutely when it

1366
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:49,940
first came out even I remember it and

1367
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:52,850
I'm you've got a few years on me Richard

1368
00:57:58,030 --> 00:57:54,650
but I remember three which was a an

1369
00:57:59,940 --> 00:57:58,040
American version of a British sitcom

1370
00:58:03,850 --> 00:57:59,950
called man about the house that's right

1371
00:58:07,450 --> 00:58:03,860
so Suzanne Somers in her more recent

1372
00:58:11,410 --> 00:58:07,460
guys has been heavily promoting

1373
00:58:14,170 --> 00:58:11,420
bioidentical hormones on eyeshadow on

1374
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:14,180
Oprah amongst other things and she seems

1375
00:58:19,210 --> 00:58:16,610
to inject himself and rub herself and

1376
00:58:22,060 --> 00:58:19,220
cover herself and just about every

1377
00:58:26,590 --> 00:58:22,070
possible or weird thing that she can

1378
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:26,600
come across all in an attempt to so long

1379
00:58:37,060 --> 00:58:32,570
ah what say I open up and say ahh all in

1380
00:58:41,110 --> 00:58:37,070
an attempt to stop the aging process but

1381
00:58:43,690 --> 00:58:41,120
her latest effort is a book that's a

1382
00:58:44,770 --> 00:58:43,700
glass washer at the bar ladies and

1383
00:58:48,790 --> 00:58:44,780
gentlemen you can hear in the background

1384
00:58:52,590 --> 00:58:48,800
carry on chair like a plane about table

1385
00:58:54,780 --> 00:58:52,600
um alright so Suzanne Somers is now

1386
00:58:58,750 --> 00:58:54,790
she's just published a book called

1387
00:59:01,900 --> 00:58:58,760
knockout and she's now going against

1388
00:59:04,930 --> 00:59:01,910
conventional cancer therapies only

1389
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:04,940
chemotherapy oh so thank you suzanne

1390
00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:07,130
somers for once again providing us with

1391
00:59:15,070 --> 00:59:12,340
your your superior scientific intellect

1392
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:15,080
and you knew I respectively more

1393
00:59:20,890 --> 00:59:18,170
evidence-based I'm and in fact this

1394
00:59:25,770 --> 00:59:20,900
article I've got here from the eighth

1395
00:59:28,270 --> 00:59:25,780
from Associated Press today comments on

1396
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:28,280
dr. Otis Brawley from the American

1397
00:59:33,830 --> 00:59:30,240
Cancer Society what a great

1398
00:59:35,180 --> 00:59:33,840
yes whoo-hoo basically says that he's

1399
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:35,190
very worried that people are going to

1400
00:59:41,230 --> 00:59:36,720
listen to her message and follow what

1401
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:43,400
particularly highlighting the fact that

1402
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:46,530
celebrities and sports stars feel that

1403
00:59:50,540 --> 00:59:48,690
they can use their fame to give out

1404
00:59:52,970 --> 00:59:50,550
medical advice and it's something that

1405
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:52,980
we see so much of these days from as we

1406
00:59:58,010 --> 00:59:54,810
as we've said people like ginger coffee

1407
01:00:02,000 --> 00:59:58,020
but he specifically referred to people

1408
01:00:04,730 --> 01:00:02,010
like Don Imus the radio host who is

1409
01:00:06,530 --> 01:00:04,740
apparently eating habanero peppers and

1410
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:06,540
taking Japanese soy supplements to treat

1411
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:11,040
his prostate cancer and of course you

1412
01:00:17,330 --> 01:00:12,450
know they also referred to bill Mahar

1413
01:00:20,180 --> 01:00:17,340
who as we know his his endorsement or

1414
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:20,190
attack his attack on vaccinations and

1415
01:00:24,740 --> 01:00:22,290
his endorsement of various sorry Joe his

1416
01:00:27,140 --> 01:00:24,750
new name is the Richard Dawkins award

1417
01:00:30,500 --> 01:00:27,150
feel ya we haven't remembered to say

1418
01:00:31,730 --> 01:00:30,510
that so as I'm saying Don Imus was one

1419
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:31,740
of the examples and of course many

1420
01:00:36,020 --> 01:00:33,210
people would remember Steve McQueen and

1421
01:00:38,180 --> 01:00:36,030
how he went down to Mexico oh I was

1422
01:00:42,380 --> 01:00:38,190
taking like trial which has been

1423
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:42,390
completely shown to be ineffective so

1424
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:45,090
Suzanne Somers now is promoting this

1425
01:00:53,150 --> 01:00:50,090
book and no doubt will be seen on Oprah

1426
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:53,160
publicizing this one as well and in fact

1427
01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:56,000
the other thing that she did was she

1428
01:01:01,790 --> 01:00:59,280
when patrick swayze died she came out

1429
01:01:03,770 --> 01:01:01,800
and commented that chemotherapy you had

1430
01:01:05,570 --> 01:01:03,780
had had more than likely been

1431
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:05,580
responsible for his death rather than

1432
01:01:09,740 --> 01:01:08,130
his pancreatic cancer and the tabloids

1433
01:01:12,410 --> 01:01:09,750
went nuts over that one she had to come

1434
01:01:14,570 --> 01:01:12,420
out and apologize but I mean once again

1435
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:14,580
is just another example of someone with

1436
01:01:19,790 --> 01:01:16,160
absolutely no medical or scientific

1437
01:01:21,830 --> 01:01:19,800
qualifications mouthing off and thinking

1438
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:21,840
that they have some position to be doing

1439
01:01:27,590 --> 01:01:25,650
this and endorsed by otra sorry yeah I

1440
01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:27,600
got time I protects responsibility for

1441
01:01:31,609 --> 01:01:29,310
her nonsense but anyway yes before we

1442
01:01:35,420 --> 01:01:31,619
move on i'll quickly mention to our

1443
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:35,430
listeners that there's a new channel on

1444
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:39,119
the blip TV on the internet blip TV i

1445
01:01:42,180 --> 01:01:41,130
think it's blip TV anyway it's it's sort

1446
01:01:44,550 --> 01:01:42,190
of like youtube

1447
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:44,560
and there's a story up there I noticed

1448
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:46,480
just placed up the other week about a

1449
01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:48,640
family in Western Australia here in

1450
01:01:53,370 --> 01:01:50,310
Australia who took their daughter

1451
01:01:57,330 --> 01:01:53,380
terminally ill out of proper medical

1452
01:02:00,060 --> 01:01:57,340
care and raced her away to Cuba no no

1453
01:02:01,500 --> 01:02:00,070
alva door is it el salvador I'm sorry el

1454
01:02:03,690 --> 01:02:01,510
salvador where she is now undergoing

1455
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:03,700
cancer treatment which consists of her

1456
01:02:08,460 --> 01:02:06,490
being wrapped up in with money its

1457
01:02:10,110 --> 01:02:08,470
red-clay actually recently so it's

1458
01:02:13,110 --> 01:02:10,120
probably got some more active ingredient

1459
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:13,120
which month away mud and tea as well

1460
01:02:19,290 --> 01:02:16,570
Hamilton herbal tea quack TV look it up

1461
01:02:20,790 --> 01:02:19,300
on blip TV actually it's really worth

1462
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:20,800
looking at that story because it was

1463
01:02:24,690 --> 01:02:22,960
very well done on behalf of channel 7

1464
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:24,700
they were very critical of the parents

1465
01:02:33,150 --> 01:02:28,330
yes and it was it was very pious fun for

1466
01:02:35,460 --> 01:02:33,160
a while um and speaking of cancer Rachel

1467
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:35,470
I think you've got a message there from

1468
01:02:42,330 --> 01:02:39,610
our old friend Meryl Dory from the

1469
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:42,340
Australian vaccination network I've got

1470
01:02:46,350 --> 01:02:44,050
a message from Merrill for all our

1471
01:02:48,090 --> 01:02:46,360
lovely listeners out there now this is

1472
01:02:49,860 --> 01:02:48,100
some advice from Merrill we're not

1473
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:49,870
really advice so much as what she would

1474
01:02:54,180 --> 01:02:52,720
do when someone rings you up and asked

1475
01:02:56,100 --> 01:02:54,190
you to dance Merrill Dory from the

1476
01:02:58,290 --> 01:02:56,110
Australian vaccination at work the

1477
01:03:00,780 --> 01:02:58,300
anti-vaccination crowd here on the

1478
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:00,790
anti-vaccination lobby in Australia now

1479
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:03,250
this is was her response to someone

1480
01:03:06,810 --> 01:03:04,930
calling up and asking her to donate

1481
01:03:10,490 --> 01:03:06,820
money for breast cancer awareness month

1482
01:03:13,170 --> 01:03:10,500
which it is in October in Australia and

1483
01:03:15,540 --> 01:03:13,180
she I quote this is a quote from her

1484
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:15,550
which is her response to this phone call

1485
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:18,370
I think they end up being sorry that

1486
01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:20,410
they ever called me because I don't just

1487
01:03:25,230 --> 01:03:23,710
say no I tell them why I say that I work

1488
01:03:27,540 --> 01:03:25,240
for a children's charity that is

1489
01:03:29,790 --> 01:03:27,550
involved in preventing cancer and that

1490
01:03:32,370 --> 01:03:29,800
in 50 years the Cancer Council and other

1491
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:32,380
bodies have done nothing cancer is more

1492
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:34,810
prevalent today than when it was when

1493
01:03:39,210 --> 01:03:36,970
they started to supposedly research and

1494
01:03:41,550 --> 01:03:39,220
if I'm going to make a donation I want

1495
01:03:43,950 --> 01:03:41,560
it to go to a good cause not just to

1496
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:43,960
line the pockets of some researcher who

1497
01:03:48,210 --> 01:03:45,970
has no interest in actually seeing their

1498
01:03:50,850 --> 01:03:48,220
research come to fruition rather than

1499
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:50,860
keeping themselves in a job they don't

1500
01:03:55,260 --> 01:03:53,170
know what to say but hopefully it makes

1501
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:55,270
them think that maybe there is more to

1502
01:03:59,620 --> 01:03:56,090
this cancer

1503
01:04:01,750 --> 01:03:59,630
often they were told I don't often look

1504
01:04:03,940 --> 01:04:01,760
to say to religious loonies look at my

1505
01:04:05,380 --> 01:04:03,950
daughter's gonna say Richard uh-oh and

1506
01:04:08,500 --> 01:04:05,390
Merrill to come and stand at my front

1507
01:04:10,780 --> 01:04:08,510
door and and and turn all the the door

1508
01:04:13,390 --> 01:04:10,790
knockers away I'm sorry I've got to go

1509
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:13,400
and line my pockets from the research

1510
01:04:20,740 --> 01:04:18,410
off you go we get on by my pocket she's

1511
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:20,750
up she's off to see you betta back turn

1512
01:04:26,980 --> 01:04:24,290
your your money bags and go there you go

1513
01:04:31,060 --> 01:04:26,990
thank you Merrill for those words of

1514
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:31,070
wisdom indeed and I think Meryl probably

1515
01:04:36,340 --> 01:04:32,960
would be also interested in the topic of

1516
01:04:39,250 --> 01:04:36,350
mercury levels how she would be she

1517
01:04:41,830 --> 01:04:39,260
would be a study you like that all this

1518
01:04:44,410 --> 01:04:41,840
week I like Joe a great big ways yes

1519
01:04:47,650 --> 01:04:44,420
good good Paul I want to quickly just

1520
01:04:49,810 --> 01:04:47,660
talk about an article that was came out

1521
01:04:52,350 --> 01:04:49,820
today from the journal neurotoxicology

1522
01:04:54,490 --> 01:04:52,360
it's from our friend andrew wakefield

1523
01:04:57,550 --> 01:04:54,500
andrew wakefield still gets published

1524
01:04:59,140 --> 01:04:57,560
yes I'm afraid so we alluded to this

1525
01:05:01,270 --> 01:04:59,150
last week but we were unable to get

1526
01:05:03,250 --> 01:05:01,280
access to the full article the

1527
01:05:06,610 --> 01:05:03,260
anti-vaxxers were sending out the

1528
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:06,620
abstract across the intertubes with glee

1529
01:05:14,830 --> 01:05:10,640
last week because this article is a

1530
01:05:16,570 --> 01:05:14,840
study in macaques which shows a brand of

1531
01:05:21,250 --> 01:05:16,580
a type of monkey type of monkey monkey

1532
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:21,260
yeah which involves injecting newborn

1533
01:05:28,020 --> 01:05:24,170
monkeys with the hepatitis B vaccine

1534
01:05:29,980 --> 01:05:28,030
that contains thimerosal and then doing

1535
01:05:33,250 --> 01:05:29,990
tests on them to see if they have

1536
01:05:36,190 --> 01:05:33,260
neurological disorders and the results

1537
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:36,200
as you can probably expect our that the

1538
01:05:40,780 --> 01:05:37,910
ones that have received the hepatitis B

1539
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:40,790
vaccine with our marisol have slowed

1540
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:44,210
development and show less neurological

1541
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:45,520
development than the ones that haven't

1542
01:05:50,590 --> 01:05:48,650
so I only printed this off just before I

1543
01:05:52,330 --> 01:05:50,600
came today so I need to read it again a

1544
01:05:53,770 --> 01:05:52,340
bit more thoroughly but a couple of

1545
01:05:57,010 --> 01:05:53,780
things that we noticed straight off the

1546
01:05:59,890 --> 01:05:57,020
bat Joe and myself was that the sample

1547
01:06:02,320 --> 01:05:59,900
size or the the number of monkeys

1548
01:06:03,700 --> 01:06:02,330
involved is very small where have we

1549
01:06:04,970 --> 01:06:03,710
seen a small sample size in and

1550
01:06:07,609 --> 01:06:04,980
Wakefield study

1551
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:07,619
Joe would it be the 1998 Lancet study

1552
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:11,010
cancel the MMR problems Jonah sounds

1553
01:06:15,830 --> 01:06:12,720
like the one that would have been all

1554
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:15,840
eight kids was not 12 12 children sorry

1555
01:06:21,470 --> 01:06:19,200
um yeah in this one there are 13 monkeys

1556
01:06:25,849 --> 01:06:21,480
that are actually I think there's a

1557
01:06:29,180 --> 01:06:25,859
movie called a 13-month is 12 Bruce

1558
01:06:31,490 --> 01:06:29,190
Willis this is 13 let me just double

1559
01:06:33,770 --> 01:06:31,500
check site up messes up there are there

1560
01:06:36,290 --> 01:06:33,780
are 13 that received a vaccine there are

1561
01:06:38,359 --> 01:06:36,300
four that received just a saline

1562
01:06:40,490 --> 01:06:38,369
injection so a control injection and

1563
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:40,500
then there were through our three that

1564
01:06:44,990 --> 01:06:42,570
had nothing at all but one of the things

1565
01:06:47,630 --> 01:06:45,000
that Joe noticed over dinner was that

1566
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:47,640
there's no control group where that

1567
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:49,200
received the vaccine without thimerosal

1568
01:06:55,359 --> 01:06:52,010
mmm yeah it was quite interesting them

1569
01:06:59,120 --> 01:06:55,369
despite the fact that they say that the

1570
01:07:01,220 --> 01:06:59,130
vaccine with the thimerosal can is still

1571
01:07:04,970 --> 01:07:01,230
used in the developing world they were

1572
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:04,980
unable to procure any of the vaccine

1573
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:07,770
made up by the companies that make the

1574
01:07:11,540 --> 01:07:09,690
vaccine that they were testing I didn't

1575
01:07:13,370 --> 01:07:11,550
say though they just didn't pretend they

1576
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:13,380
didn't explain why I did that's right

1577
01:07:17,870 --> 01:07:15,450
didn't they aren't they didn't cure and

1578
01:07:20,180 --> 01:07:17,880
what they did was they obtained the Hep

1579
01:07:23,210 --> 01:07:20,190
B vaccine and then they added thimerosal

1580
01:07:24,980 --> 01:07:23,220
to the vaccine that's correct yeah and

1581
01:07:26,540 --> 01:07:24,990
that was what they actually used and I

1582
01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:26,550
found that a little bit strange yeah

1583
01:07:31,130 --> 01:07:29,310
they used ricambi vax HB which is

1584
01:07:34,220 --> 01:07:31,140
manufactured by Merck and then they

1585
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:34,230
added the thimerosal at lower levels

1586
01:07:40,070 --> 01:07:37,050
than what you would find for human

1587
01:07:42,170 --> 01:07:40,080
infants because it's a weight / that's

1588
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:42,180
right it's a a man of thimerosal per

1589
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:44,880
body weight and they described in the

1590
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:46,710
methods section a very long process of

1591
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:48,000
how they made sure they had the right

1592
01:07:53,930 --> 01:07:50,090
amount of time aerosol by using iron

1593
01:07:55,390 --> 01:07:53,940
spray mass spectrometry etc but you have

1594
01:07:57,500 --> 01:07:55,400
an interesting point I don't know why

1595
01:08:00,440 --> 01:07:57,510
the other thing that just caught my

1596
01:08:02,330 --> 01:08:00,450
attention immediately was the conflict

1597
01:08:04,580 --> 01:08:02,340
of interest statement in this paper now

1598
01:08:10,490 --> 01:08:04,590
I review a lot of papers in my job

1599
01:08:12,380 --> 01:08:10,500
usually a couple a week sometimes and a

1600
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:12,390
lot of scientific papers they ask you

1601
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:14,130
for a conflict of interest yes which is

1602
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:15,810
was that one of the major problems with

1603
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:17,650
the first Wakefield paper that everyone

1604
01:08:22,169 --> 01:08:19,839
probably knows about by now so let me

1605
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:22,179
just basically read this to you so it

1606
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,359
says prior to 2005 andrew wakefield and

1607
01:08:30,660 --> 01:08:27,520
CS who's another one of the authors on

1608
01:08:32,849 --> 01:08:30,670
this paper actors paid experts in MMR

1609
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:32,859
related litigation on behalf of the

1610
01:08:39,630 --> 01:08:35,650
plaintiff so basically they were giving

1611
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:39,640
evidence against well for MMR causing

1612
01:08:45,539 --> 01:08:43,359
autism mmm right another author called

1613
01:08:49,490 --> 01:08:45,549
LH and she's the first author her name

1614
01:08:51,390 --> 01:08:49,500
is Laura hewitson has a child who is

1615
01:08:54,499 --> 01:08:51,400
petitioner in the national vaccine

1616
01:08:58,260 --> 01:08:54,509
injury compensation program good grief

1617
01:09:00,510 --> 01:08:58,270
now it states here for this reason Laura

1618
01:09:02,820 --> 01:09:00,520
was not involved in any data collection

1619
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:02,830
or statistical analysis to preclude the

1620
01:09:08,189 --> 01:09:04,810
possibility of a perceived conflict of

1621
01:09:11,099 --> 01:09:08,199
interest now this is all fine but she's

1622
01:09:13,309 --> 01:09:11,109
the first author on this paper she's the

1623
01:09:16,380 --> 01:09:13,319
first author on this paper now

1624
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:16,390
regardless of who collects the data it's

1625
01:09:21,059 --> 01:09:18,130
your role as the first author to

1626
01:09:23,579 --> 01:09:21,069
interpret the data and to write it into

1627
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:23,589
a manner which you think is correct

1628
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:26,170
based on what you said on on the day

1629
01:09:30,510 --> 01:09:28,210
yeah does anybody take this general

1630
01:09:31,890 --> 01:09:30,520
seriously well I think when we talked

1631
01:09:33,990 --> 01:09:31,900
about this journal last week because we

1632
01:09:37,649 --> 01:09:34,000
used in our impact factor studies when

1633
01:09:40,979 --> 01:09:37,659
we were longing you with journals it's

1634
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:40,989
as I mentioned last week in respect to

1635
01:09:45,180 --> 01:09:43,120
the lancet it's around a to in terms of

1636
01:09:47,340 --> 01:09:45,190
impact factor whereas the lancet is

1637
01:09:49,919 --> 01:09:47,350
above 20 like it's you know quite

1638
01:09:51,990 --> 01:09:49,929
exponentially higher so the only

1639
01:09:53,820 --> 01:09:52,000
encouraging thing is that Andrew

1640
01:09:56,430 --> 01:09:53,830
Wakefield is now publishing in two

1641
01:09:59,160 --> 01:09:56,440
journals instead of 30s or whatever The

1642
01:10:00,630 --> 01:09:59,170
Lancet is I can't remember exactly but I

1643
01:10:02,220 --> 01:10:00,640
haven't had time to read this thoroughly

1644
01:10:05,310 --> 01:10:02,230
but that was straight off the bat I

1645
01:10:06,959 --> 01:10:05,320
thought or hang on a second you know so

1646
01:10:08,910 --> 01:10:06,969
I don't know who's responsible for

1647
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:08,920
reviewing this paper but I'm going to be

1648
01:10:13,709 --> 01:10:11,050
keeping an eye on the letters to the

1649
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:13,719
editor once this is published it makes

1650
01:10:19,169 --> 01:10:17,130
for quite a sort of taxing reading

1651
01:10:20,820 --> 01:10:19,179
dissecting it but I mean there are some

1652
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:20,830
as racial addition there are some

1653
01:10:25,390 --> 01:10:23,760
glaring things that stand out

1654
01:10:28,069 --> 01:10:25,400
not least of which of course are

1655
01:10:29,629 --> 01:10:28,079
Wakefield's own scientific revelation

1656
01:10:32,089 --> 01:10:29,639
and as you and I discussed over dinner

1657
01:10:33,169 --> 01:10:32,099
the measurements here although they're

1658
01:10:34,220 --> 01:10:33,179
quite well established and more

1659
01:10:36,410 --> 01:10:34,230
published they are still quite

1660
01:10:38,959 --> 01:10:36,420
subjective in terms of measuring whether

1661
01:10:41,569 --> 01:10:38,969
the monkey is not developing

1662
01:10:45,379 --> 01:10:41,579
neurologically you know things like

1663
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:45,389
sucking properly or remember some of the

1664
01:10:49,129 --> 01:10:47,760
other terms are smelting and routing

1665
01:10:51,950 --> 01:10:49,139
which is kind of like pushing for the

1666
01:10:53,270 --> 01:10:51,960
name or things like that I mean every

1667
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,280
other wing is geo and we look I

1668
01:10:59,779 --> 01:10:55,679
absolutely make no claim of having any

1669
01:11:02,569 --> 01:10:59,789
expertise in child child development but

1670
01:11:05,450 --> 01:11:02,579
I'm my other question is you know I

1671
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:05,460
think very clearly the the claims of

1672
01:11:11,270 --> 01:11:08,010
these people has always been the link

1673
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:11,280
between autism and thimerosal yeah now I

1674
01:11:17,779 --> 01:11:14,250
don't entirely see how the specific

1675
01:11:21,819 --> 01:11:17,789
things that they are trying to link to a

1676
01:11:25,790 --> 01:11:21,829
Marisol here necessarily correlate with

1677
01:11:28,549 --> 01:11:25,800
oh it's a it's a yeah it's it's a

1678
01:11:30,740 --> 01:11:28,559
stretch Joe it's a stretch just really

1679
01:11:32,419 --> 01:11:30,750
yeah it's dragging it out look how I'll

1680
01:11:34,609 --> 01:11:32,429
try on some I'll try and go through this

1681
01:11:37,399 --> 01:11:34,619
in more detail in a later time and blog

1682
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:37,409
it thoroughly but if people are

1683
01:11:40,790 --> 01:11:38,730
interested in getting a copy of it

1684
01:11:43,729 --> 01:11:40,800
because i don't think it's not available

1685
01:11:45,919 --> 01:11:43,739
free online i have access to it i'll

1686
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:45,929
probably twitter the PDF and if anyone

1687
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:47,610
else emails me at rachel its fifties

1688
01:11:52,069 --> 01:11:50,489
under me i can send your copy well Joe

1689
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:52,079
let's wrap this up with another

1690
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:53,610
important if you have about those

1691
01:11:58,129 --> 01:11:56,010
bracelets we keep seeing in pharmacies

1692
01:11:59,870 --> 01:11:58,139
those copper bracelets yes Richard I was

1693
01:12:01,879 --> 01:11:59,880
really pleased when I saw this article

1694
01:12:05,509 --> 01:12:01,889
today actually I haven't I haven't seen

1695
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:05,519
the the paper itself but this was on BBC

1696
01:12:12,319 --> 01:12:10,650
News a trial was done by some

1697
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:12,329
researchers from the University of York

1698
01:12:20,270 --> 01:12:15,840
looking at those copper bracelets and

1699
01:12:23,540 --> 01:12:20,280
magnetic wrist straps and a demagnetized

1700
01:12:27,020 --> 01:12:23,550
version which was there placebo and

1701
01:12:29,950 --> 01:12:27,030
there were forty-five patients at

1702
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:29,960
comparing the the four different

1703
01:12:33,310 --> 01:12:31,850
treatments looking at the effect on

1704
01:12:38,860 --> 01:12:33,320
relieving pain in people with

1705
01:12:41,740 --> 01:12:38,870
osteoarthritis and the the study refund

1706
01:12:43,870 --> 01:12:41,750
there was no effect at all that they

1707
01:12:49,540 --> 01:12:43,880
were completely ineffective in and

1708
01:12:51,910 --> 01:12:49,550
treating no shopping so let'slet's

1709
01:12:56,950 --> 01:12:51,920
useless in arthritis the headline

1710
01:12:59,229 --> 01:12:56,960
screams yes BBC News the URL is because

1711
01:13:00,760 --> 01:12:59,239
it's not a fact that talks about what

1712
01:13:02,709 --> 01:13:00,770
they what they specifically refer to is

1713
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:02,719
the fact that these bracelets cost and

1714
01:13:08,860 --> 01:13:05,570
this is in in british pounds they cost

1715
01:13:13,510 --> 01:13:08,870
between 25 and 65 pounds the industry is

1716
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:13,520
worth billions of dollars and they say

1717
01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:15,530
the researchers say that any perceived

1718
01:13:19,810 --> 01:13:17,600
benefit can pretty much be attributed to

1719
01:13:21,459 --> 01:13:19,820
the placebo effect and that the

1720
01:13:23,470 --> 01:13:21,469
marketing of these devices is offering

1721
01:13:26,020 --> 01:13:23,480
to is mostly to vulnerable elderly

1722
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:26,030
people so to all the pharmacists out

1723
01:13:29,140 --> 01:13:27,530
there who are continuing to sell these

1724
01:13:30,490 --> 01:13:29,150
products I think this is probably a good

1725
01:13:32,860 --> 01:13:30,500
time to start looking at your

1726
01:13:34,959 --> 01:13:32,870
endorsement of this is a ax it's a good

1727
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:34,969
product for you there's a good message

1728
01:13:38,500 --> 01:13:37,010
that we can send out to the pharmacist

1729
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:38,510
out there who knowingly sell these

1730
01:13:45,940 --> 01:13:44,690
bracelets so sums it up nicely rich oh I

1731
01:13:48,940 --> 01:13:45,950
got the confused that's actually the

1732
01:13:50,620 --> 01:13:48,950
ancient word for reiki I wondered why

1733
01:13:56,650 --> 01:13:50,630
you were yelling out right as i speak

1734
01:13:59,620 --> 01:13:56,660
Reiki Richard you do that come on that

1735
01:14:01,630 --> 01:13:59,630
musical note on that musical note I'd

1736
01:14:02,979 --> 01:14:01,640
like to thank very much Joan been amoo

1737
01:14:04,750 --> 01:14:02,989
for joining us again tonight now

1738
01:14:07,810 --> 01:14:04,760
favorite club down the street with no

1739
01:14:09,700 --> 01:14:07,820
bus announcement oh you know what I

1740
01:14:12,130 --> 01:14:09,710
heard 10 when we were having dinner I

1741
01:14:14,140 --> 01:14:12,140
thought we've blown it we're not going

1742
01:14:17,170 --> 01:14:14,150
to get one no tune in next week yes sir

1743
01:14:19,209 --> 01:14:17,180
maybe so and dr. Rachel dumb-off as it

1744
01:14:20,890 --> 01:14:19,219
thank you so much thank you very much

1745
01:14:22,930 --> 01:14:20,900
for sure and think your listeners for

1746
01:14:45,070 --> 01:14:22,940
listening and you'll have another thing

1747
01:14:47,110 --> 01:14:45,080
taking about hello I'm Tony Pittman the

1748
01:14:50,290 --> 01:14:47,120
presenter of the weekly radio show and

1749
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:50,300
podcast reality check broadcast from

1750
01:14:55,060 --> 01:14:53,090
here in melbourne australia and if you

1751
01:14:57,100 --> 01:14:55,070
like listening to the skeptic zone maybe

1752
01:15:00,459 --> 01:14:57,110
you'd like to check out reality check

1753
01:15:03,910 --> 01:15:00,469
each week we bring you a roundup of LGBT

1754
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:03,920
news that's news related to lesbian gay

1755
01:15:11,170 --> 01:15:07,489
bisexual and transgender issues plus a

1756
01:15:13,209 --> 01:15:11,180
movie review plus a serious skeptical

1757
01:15:17,170 --> 01:15:13,219
analysis of a topic related to

1758
01:15:18,670 --> 01:15:17,180
pseudoscience or the paranormal so if

1759
01:15:22,180 --> 01:15:18,680
that sounds like it could be right up

1760
01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:22,190
your alley visit our website at reality

1761
01:15:28,420 --> 01:15:25,910
check online dot net there you can

1762
01:15:31,260 --> 01:15:28,430
listen online download episodes or

1763
01:15:46,290 --> 01:15:31,270
subscribe that's reality check online

1764
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:49,020
Richard another fabulous shows and that

1765
01:15:53,100 --> 01:15:50,650
interesting one that interview of John

1766
01:15:55,770 --> 01:15:53,110
smile isn't it like a way my arms around

1767
01:15:58,859 --> 01:15:55,780
them and on a podcast can it's amazing

1768
01:16:00,450 --> 01:15:58,869
yes but that's for our help you is a

1769
01:16:02,669 --> 01:16:00,460
video viewers yeah we're doing a little

1770
01:16:04,620 --> 01:16:02,679
video experiment oh yeah it's very

1771
01:16:07,169 --> 01:16:04,630
exciting isn't it yes very sorry hello

1772
01:16:09,060 --> 01:16:07,179
camera hello camera great show yeah well

1773
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:09,070
i know i really i really enjoyed that

1774
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:10,690
show I'm it was always good to be part

1775
01:16:15,660 --> 01:16:13,570
of the think tank yes I know but not

1776
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,670
yeah I keep missing it as well you can

1777
01:16:19,470 --> 01:16:17,440
always come yeah I know invitation as

1778
01:16:20,850 --> 01:16:19,480
always there well next week we're going

1779
01:16:23,010 --> 01:16:20,860
to have an interesting show we've got a

1780
01:16:25,260 --> 01:16:23,020
another panel from our adventures and

1781
01:16:26,939 --> 01:16:25,270
Dragon Con oh yeah and this is one that

1782
01:16:28,890 --> 01:16:26,949
Kylie out reporter Carly Sturgis was

1783
01:16:31,339 --> 01:16:28,900
taking part of yeah and it's all about

1784
01:16:33,569 --> 01:16:31,349
Darwin's Bulldogs creationism

1785
01:16:36,030 --> 01:16:33,579
intelligent design and some people like

1786
01:16:37,740 --> 01:16:36,040
Jeanne Scott Eugenie Scott all weather

1787
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:37,750
agency is that worth looking forward to

1788
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:39,489
its hotting up in that area too is that

1789
01:16:42,629 --> 01:16:40,690
at the moment because there's a lot of

1790
01:16:44,100 --> 01:16:42,639
there's been a lot of new sort of

1791
01:16:46,530 --> 01:16:44,110
scientific things going on there trying

1792
01:16:49,470 --> 01:16:46,540
to discover more missing links and means

1793
01:16:51,089 --> 01:16:49,480
more about how life's actually evolved

1794
01:16:52,830 --> 01:16:51,099
isn't it strange that every major

1795
01:16:54,770 --> 01:16:52,840
discovery they're making now in the past

1796
01:16:57,660 --> 01:16:54,780
year I think there's been several all

1797
01:17:00,089 --> 01:16:57,670
support the theory of evolution isn't

1798
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:00,099
that just I can't create I'm dumbfounded

1799
01:17:05,430 --> 01:17:03,010
I'm done for how could that ever happen

1800
01:17:06,959 --> 01:17:05,440
I just don't understand seven no I just

1801
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:06,969
don't understand I'll have to keep

1802
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:08,650
listening to the skeptic zone to learn

1803
01:17:12,689 --> 01:17:10,449
more especially next week yes absolutely

1804
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:12,699
and i believe that i may be doing

1805
01:17:17,490 --> 01:17:14,170
something coming up in the next episode

1806
01:17:19,740 --> 01:17:17,500
or two about about strange audio stuff

1807
01:17:22,319 --> 01:17:19,750
like you're hearing things backwards and

1808
01:17:24,149 --> 01:17:22,329
hearing sounds yeah they might are just

1809
01:17:25,740 --> 01:17:24,159
a little bit of teaser so it could be

1810
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:25,750
something coming up about that Boulder

1811
01:17:29,069 --> 01:17:27,730
yeah and they may even be something on

1812
01:17:33,299 --> 01:17:29,079
this particular podcasters played

1813
01:17:35,970 --> 01:17:33,309
backwards ah you never know no but no

1814
01:17:39,370 --> 01:17:35,980
honestly don't waste your time we'll see

1815
01:17:40,830 --> 01:17:39,380
you next week Richard bye-bye

1816
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:40,840
you

1817
01:17:50,609 --> 01:17:46,810
zone visit our website at www scripting

1818
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:50,619
zone TV for comments contacts and extra

1819
01:17:58,240 --> 01:17:53,290
video reports